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the best I canWe all are. I am in competition with myself not with anyone else. It's just that when I use someone else's data, it's not the best that I can. It's the best someone else can.its not just about acquiring data Here we are again back to acquisition...a largely rote, mechanical process once mastered. I believe this because I have mastered the process. So much so that I'm confident enough to operate my telescopes from 2,200 miles away. In addition, many backyard imagers prefer to sleep though the process...setting alarms, using products like GNS (their description: "the only solution to be able to sleep"). I once did this too. I believe it is way more about the processing than the acquisition. Otherwise, there would be some critically important acquisition processes that differentiate one imager from another. I content that there are no such processes. We all focus, we all plate solve, we all track, guide, etc. Some do it better, some with better equipment, etc. But at it's core it is the same and not a differentiator. Maybe I'm unaware of some special acquisition techniques that require personal presence. Does one need to stay awake throughout the process? Does one need execute every step needed to acquire image data? If not, which steps are essential to qualify someone as an astrophotographer? Is "someone else's data" of M42, for example, made unique because they operated the systems? Is this the very thing that makes the image unique? The bits and bytes are identical ceteris paribus. Thank you for this conversation. Regardless of how AB changes or not, or if anyone else's perspective has changed this conversation has allowed me to better understand my own perspective even better. I am an astrophotographer after all. Respectfully, -Lloyd |
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Tolga.... Can I give you some data? Just to show there are no hard feelings, but rather different opinions. The raw data remains my property, acquired by me on my own personal scope (it's not as good as the scopes used by DSW members, but very close). The final image is your property :-) -Lloyd |
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All of this comes down to competitiveness. I feel very strongly that this has absolutely NO PLACE in Astrophotography. If we eliminated the pointless, contentious IOTD this entire discussion is moot. |
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I'm betting the TOS are anachronistic. It might not be prudent to base arguments on that alone. -Lloyd |
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Lloyd: Wes Chilton: I am only doing for for a year. I am in no place to be a contender. This is not the reason I have an opinion about this. I am not trying to change the rules so I can win!!!. The fact remains that TOS clearly says "You may not use the Site or the Service:to post any images that you didn't personally take, regardless of the ownership of the equipment used;" I am not accusing anyone of cheating. People didn't know about the rules and submitted images by mistake. But from now on we should follow the rules. Lloyd, this is not about feelings. I went through 5 years of IBEW apprenticeship. I have no feelings left to be hurt LOL. I love to do processing. It's fun and I learn things. But I am not going to put my name on it. Just like I didn't put a copyright on Mike Miller's data. here Actually if you think about it, according to the TOS I shouldn't have that image posted on this website. |
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I don't have any problems with remote image acquisition, as long as its disclosed.... I wish I had to money for a remote observatory. It would be all mine though, owned, setup and run. But whatever, it doesn't matter. What matters is that this whole discussion, this entire website is around a competition. And when its a competition and someone has a huge advantage like a remote, automated observatory, under exceptional skies... its unfair. When the same dozen or so people are winning all the time (whether or not their work is any good), something is broken and unfair. The whole thing becomes an arms race. This is an axiom. I've seen it for over 30 years in every hobby I've had, music, motorcycle racing, 3D animation, precision rifles, photography.... whoever has the most money, best opportunities and best equipment wins. And everyone else get frustrated and angry. Its destroys the enjoyment of the hobby for many people... winners or not. I hate seeing yet another hobby that I enjoy being reduced to a competition. Deny it all you like, equivocate and do all sorts of verbal hand-waving.... but this is exactly what the focus of this site has become. The IOTD is the focus of this site, its the lure, not astrophotography or astronomy. The IOTD and all the "likes" is all you see on the front page. It is the face of Astrobin. Its a doomed model. We should be lifting each other up, teaching, sharing, helping everyone improve. Not trying to dominate and compete for empty awards. |
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Wes Chilton: It's the competition that pushed Einstein to fix his mistake in GR. If he didn't push himself, he was going to get beat to the punch. Friendly competition is a good thing. However this is not a professional APOD like website. The really top guns don't even post their images here. All this time I thought it was just my opinion that pro data did not belong here. Turns out it's in the rules. Clearly the original intent of the site was to promote backyard astrophotographer. Somehow it started to be overlooked. We all know the IOTD is nothing but a popularity contest the way it's setup right now. Look at the people who get the most likes. They follow everyone with a pulse, like everything that's posted, and get likes in return. This is being discussed in another forum right now. This forum is about pro data. I stand firm that we should follow the rules or if you don't agree with them you should lobby to change them. Wes Chilton: Don't we do that? I thought we did. Many helped me and I helped many from what I have learned. |
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Guys, I'll sneak in quickly just to say that that paragraph in the TOS was meant to say "You can't upload here images that you just found on the Internet, it's gotta have to be your work somehow." Obviously I got the wording wrong, and I'll fix that! |
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As Paddy wrote: "or we bring it all together as one big happily family to enjoy the excellence and diversity the site has offered this far" That's what I am thinking about, let's work together as a big family producing astro related images however possible, if there is given the source everybody can built a personal view to it on its own. Cheers |
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BTW, its Thanksgiving... I'm thankful for all of the amazing and inspiring images posted here, for all of the people who have shared their ideas, techniques, critique and their time to help others learn to do this stuff better. Don't be grumpy Tolga, you're one of those people I'm thankful for. ;) Happy thanksgiving! Wes |
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| I thought I found a legal way lol. I'm not grumpy Wes. I sound like it but I'm quite happy. I'm thankful to be here too and have all you as friends. |
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Wes Chilton: Hi Wes - could I ask you to read my posts again as I will fall under the umbrella of everyone. I seek no competition with anyone on this site never have never will, just with myself. I seek excellence and strive to achieve that in all I do including what I do here. From what I have read a number of others here have expressed that same view. Not entirely sure if we are reading the same thing! I find your statement re: competition to be miles wide of my experiences on AB - I spend a significant amount of my time here helping people offering advice and trying to pass on what others have taught me. Many, many others do to. Only today I received some useful info from another contributor to this conversation that has been very useful to me. That's what AB has been about for me. For this effort I am rewarded with some followers and some likes, seems just enough to me. That's nice but not why I did it. If I had not have received help I would be still trying to figure out where to start. Now I know that I can pass it on. To assume that responses are driven by a competitive nature is misled I am afraid. I, as others have said compete with myself, I will never win but I will always get better. Why confine my expectations to the abilities of others? I am not sure how many times I can repeat myself but the site should strive for excellence in AP. That simple. And as you point out about supporting the community develop and grow on that journey. I can openly state people like Sara Wager, Lloyd, Matthew and Barry Wilson to name but a few from AB have enabled me in various ways to develop and without people like this I would not have been able to progress to my current level in just over a year. That is the prize, anything else is a nice to have. Why is it unfair if someone has a huge automated obs under clear skies - I called this exact point out earlier as a joke! (Where is the line drawn soon people living under clear skies will be penalised) and here it is being used as a statement in a point for real! As for a dozen people ort so winning every time well that's a view I can not agree with. If any thing the IoD has become more diverse and less prone to this recently. With some nice variation see Herbert_W's IoD recently - not your usual but very interesting and worthy. As for who is good or not and who wins again excellence should prevail. If that means some of the more talented imagers win more frequently that the way of the world. Take formula 1 - I see no mass movement stating that Lewis Hamilton should be banned because he wins too much. No people except the excellence as part of the way of things. Furthermore your views of images good or bad are all 100% valid, as are mine and as are that of the judge who made that decision. You may have a different point of view but your phrasing infers a conspiracy and favouritism. Again while the IoD may be due a change I don't think this is the issue behind why that may be needed. Sorry to have to be so blunt but to be honest if these are your views, and they are retained after reading this, I feel the AB you have experienced is very different to mine. That is as fair as I can be on that! Your views seem very pessimistic and negative and I wonder why you would be here at all given that. Personally AB has helped me come a long way in a year and I look forward to the continued support it offers and wonder where I will be in a few more years. So denied - assume what you will of people, that is your choice, I will press on with mine. My world sounds a happier place so I will stick with it even if I am ultimately deluded. Cheers Paddy PS: If I choose to work hard, and I mean hard and then spend my money on a remote obs I feel I deserve the benefit of that not the criticism and cynicism of someone who thinks it's unfair that I have worked 100 hours a week to pay for something to improve my level of output. For clarity as well as using DSW I also have my own personal remote, automated observatory under (relatively exceptional skies for UK). Rather than complain about the misfortune of the disadvantages I faced I found a solution to have access to better data. I then worked hard again to pay for it. My choice - but a positive one to improve my options and potential rather than complaining about everyone else has better. I do this for the love of what I do - not a banner on my image and some likes. If I wanted to be popular I would stop doing this hobby altogether and do something that does not involves either being up all night or locked in a room for days on end processing an image....... |
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My offer is open to anyone who wants data to process...no strings attached. Given the upcoming revision to the TOS I hope to see some great images published. We all need exemplars of the art of the possible. Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it...and those who do not. -Lloyd |
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| I find it quite interesting that all the people that say that it is not about winning all have numerous winners under their belt along with a bunch of followers that mindlessly follow them in the hopes that their mediocre attempts at imaging will garner enough likes to win an IOTD. To borrow from the movie "The Grinch" What is the IOTD about? The Grinch's reply " it's all about the followers and the likes." |
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mindlessly follow them in the hopes that their mediocre attempts at imaging Noted Hondo! I will step back from this process now as it would appear it has dropped to name calling and insults! Hardly constructive and barely worth the effort to type but each to their own I suppose. I have attempted to provide constructive feedback and will leave others to ponder whether that is the case or not - amazing how trying to be helpful can be received. Good luck and CS all |
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Eric Coles (coles44):Hi Eric, your view is interesting and I like to think we don't need extra "trophy" or the bias of competition. One point is missing in your analysis though : I did get one IotD and it immediately created much more interest, more views, likes and comments. One or two other images are to me as good candidate but did not even get half of the exposition my IotD did. Leaderboard ranking on the other end could be more easily disposed of in my opinion. Some very good guys up here never make it to the leaderboard : leaderboard doesn't always seem to reflect image quality but rather the time some people will devote online : no problem with this, only this shouldn't be equaled to some "leadership"... Salvatore, on the main subject, for me two categories are enough. I do value the all process of coming up with an image. Processing could be seen as routinely as much as setting up could be. On the other end, there is an "art" in choosing nights of good seeing and stable sky the same way there is an "art" in balancing the colors in a narrowband image... Technically I wouldn't know how to give more chances to "acquired and processed vs "Hubbled" and processed. But I do tend to give some preference to home made - even if, just like Patrick (Paddy), your passion drives you to get near "professional"-like set ups. Automation or not is NOT an issue for me ; it just reflects the amount of involvement one invested in one's passion. Good luck to sort this all out, Salvatore ! |
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I find it quite interesting that all the people that say that it is not about winning all have numerous winners under their belt along with a bunch of followers that mindlessly follow them in the hopes that their mediocre attempts at imaging will garner enough likes to win an IOTD. To borrow from the movie "The Grinch" What is the IOTD about? The Grinch's reply " it's all about the followers and the likes." Hehe, yeah pretty interesting indeed. |
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My images are by no means any IOTD contenders so I don't really have a horse in this race. However aside from the obvious issues with IOTD that were discussed in the other thread (likes and followers possibly causing a certain cliquishness) I think the underlying issue is pretty simple here. People who don't go the remote route feel like they're at a massive disadvantage. And they're right about it too. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong about remote imaging but the facts are facts, remote will allow you to get so much better data that some backyard guy will never match the final image unless the difference in processing ability is extremely slanted in the favor of the backyard imager. And on top of that usually the effort needed for the remote images is also much smaller, again nothing wrong with that but facts are facts. I also don't feel like it's entirely fair to just say that acquiring data just turns into a routine process while processing doesn't. You can say that setting up your equipment, polar aligning every night etc. is repetitive and just basics but so is calibration, stacking etc. on the processing side. Most likely different people will find different things difficult on the imaging side or the processing side. Depends a lot on the skills you already have and your other hobbies. So again it all comes down to people feeling like they don't really get a fair shake because they're not at a position where they can (or want to) take advantage of some professional data or remote observatories. So the obvious solution to this would be to heavily take location/equipment into account when judging the IOTD images. I don't think categories are the right solution, that's just going to make people pay less attention to the whole thing because it makes everything more complicated. A single IOTD and some runners up is the best idea. Easy to understand for newcomers too. However again, I would really be in favor of taking those acquisition details into account when choosing the final IOTD. If an image is exceptionally good compared to other remote observatory images then choose that for IOTD. If some image is exceptionally good compared to heavy LP backyard imaging then choose that, if something is really exceptional for hubble data then choose that. And try to keep the ratio of those winners roughly in the same range as the images submitted to astrobin. If remote observatory images are a tiny minority of the submitted images then don't let them take 50% of the IOTD wins. etc. -Take conditions and equipment into account, reward exceptional skill based on those, not the absolute best image -Take the ratio of submitted images from different types of sources into account, don't let remote or hubble be extremely over represented in the amount of IOTD wins compared to the overall submitted images -Keep the simple no-categories approach There's really no simple answer but I feel like the above would be the most fair for all parties. |
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Olli Arkko:This seems a fair enough analyse, I subscribe  |
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Salvatore Iovene: According to the TOS, they are not supposed to be here in the first place. But now that you clarified the original intent, I guess it's open to anything. I still strongly believe that AB should be about backyard AP or there should be different category for them to be displayed. I think this pushes the ethical boundary of what makes images yours. There are 3 different issues here. One is pro data, two is remote data that you don't own or run and three is remote equipment you own and operate. The third one I don't have an issue, if you built it yourself and maintain it. The first two I have a huge problem with. And this is not about being fair in a competition or about winning prizes and who gets more likes. This is about what is ethical or not for us to be able to say "This is my image". It doesn't matter what is more important, acquisition or processing. What happens down the road someone comes up with a script that automatically processes data? Now what? I am not saying I won't use this type of data. What I am saying is I won't put my name on it. |
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Olli Arkko: I concur as well...simple and clean and likely fair for those in a competition or concerned about fairness (same thing as far as I can tell). Thanks, Olli A. -Lloyd |
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According to the TOS, they are not supposed to be here in the first place. But now that you clarified the original intent, I guess it's open to anything. If I recall correctly the issue of the intent of the ToS is clarified as per Salvatore in a post pre-dating the above statement thus rendering the first statement moot. The second statement is the purview of the service provider and no guess as to intent is required. The ToS are dictated at the sole discretion of the service provider--including issues dealing with conformation to accepted standards of conduct (aka, 'ethics'). If one's personal ethical code is at odds with the ToS, then the individual should act accordingly. Respectfully, Lloyd |
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Yes you are absolutely correct. Salvatore did clarify / changed the tos as I mentioned. This is my personal opinion and I will stick with it until someone convinces my otherwise. Btw I have no financial gain or lose in this issue. |
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Hi Tolga... I should have added that I understand where you are coming from. I've had a chance to think more about it. Backyard imagers in "bad skies" are definitely at a disadvantage in a competitive environment all other things being equal. I believe imagers who to go out and set up night after night have an additional burden as compared to those working from observatories whether local or remote. Leveling the competitive playing field is exceedingly difficult. Enjoying the hobby should not be made more difficult...it's hard enough already :-) -Lloyd |
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Wes Chilton: I just received a message from an Astrobin member who is an Astrophysicist at Princeton asking if he could use one of my images in a paper he is writing. Just sayin'  Cheers, Rick. |
