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Guidelines for Submitters/Reviewers/Judges

rob77
26 Feb, 2018 20:57
Josh Smith
Man, I think that is a huge one personally.  So many images look good until they are opened and the difference in processing effort and skill is not revealed unless an image is fully opened.  Making a thumbnail or small preview look good is easy, making a full image stand out and stand up to scrutiny deserves recognition.

Exactly.
I think Nikita's proposal sounds very good.
Jean-Baptiste_Paris
28 Feb, 2018 13:31
Josh Smith
Maybe just state below why they weren't selected and why they were?

Here's some recent examples…
Not Top Pick

Top Pick

Not Top Pick


Top Pick

Not Top Pick


Top Pick
Hi Josh,

Maybe a simple reason : submitters and reviewers can only select 3 images per day. So, some images can be not selected, not because they are not great, but because there are "greater" images on a given day.

Nearly everyday I have to make a difficult choice, because I would like to push 5 or 6 images that deserve IMO to be TP/IOTD ; but it's not possible. The same thing happens I think for the reviewers. And on some (few days), there is no images I feel to push for TP/IOTD (or just 1 or 2, but not 3…smile.

So, there can be some disputable choice for a given object when you compare images published in the same month, but to be consistent with the IOTD process, we should only compare images made in the same period of 3/5 days.

jb
Edited 28 Feb, 2018 13:33
Jooshs
28 Feb, 2018 14:34
Jean-Baptiste Auroux
Josh Smith
Maybe just state below why they weren't selected and why they were?

Here's some recent examples…
Not Top Pick

Top Pick

Not Top Pick


Top Pick

Not Top Pick


Top Pick
Hi Josh,

Maybe a simple reason : submitters and reviewers can only select 3 images per day. So, some images can be not selected, not because they are not great, but because there are "greater" images on a given day.

Nearly everyday I have to make a difficult choice, because I would like to push 5 or 6 images that deserve IMO to be TP/IOTD ; but it's not possible. The same thing happens I think for the reviewers. And on some (few days), there is no images I feel to push for TP/IOTD (or just 1 or 2, but not 3…smile.

So, there can be some disputable choice for a given object when you compare images published in the same month, but to be consistent with the IOTD process, we should only compare images made in the same period of 3/5 days.

jb
Thanks for clarifying JB   smile
cosmophoton
28 Feb, 2018 14:43
I think it should be a good idea if the submitters should have some veto power, at least being able to comment about some poor images before they are promoted to Top Picks.

Jean-Baptiste Auroux
Maybe a simple reason : submitters and reviewers can only select 3 images per day. So, some images can be not selected, not because they are not great, but because there are "greater" images on a given day.Nearly everyday I have to make a difficult choice, because I would like to push 5 or 6 images that deserve IMO to be TP/IOTD ; but it's not possible. The same thing happens I think for the reviewers. And on some (few days), there is no images I feel to push for TP/IOTD (or just 1 or 2, but not 3….
Agreed.
Astroholic
28 Feb, 2018 15:42
Jens Zippel
I am following the current discussion on the IOTD with great interest and, after a long period of hesitation, I would like to contribute my point of view to the process of opinion-formation. I hope you're not bored of my more detailed statement, because so much has already been written…. :-)Last year I was a Submitter, this year I'm a Reviewer, I've had many IOTDs myself. So I know a little bit about the current selection process.
Astrobin is a public community for amateur astrophotographers, where we show our homemade Pretty Pictures. I consider the IOTD award to be a great honour and motivation for the intensive work I personally invest in my hobby.

The process that a picture has to go through before it becomes IOTD seems to me to be relatively grassroots democratic. It is clear that not all decisions are made by everyone - even I would never have chosen some of the last IOTD myself. But think about it. It's a three-stage process. A future IOTD must first be approved by a submitter, then also by a reviewer - and last but not least, it requires a majority of the jury's votes. The picture could not have been quite so ugly in the end, if so many people voted for it. That's what democracy is like.

I am in favour of setting minimum technical requirements and recommending them to all those involved. Since we are all volunteers, it can only be a code of honour. I do remember, however, that Salvatore, as a Submitter, pointed me to some of the things that have been written here. In that case, a lot of things could already be in the minds here. Then it would at least be possible to clarify and write down the code of honour again through this discussion.
Personally, I am a friend of pragmatic solutions. Anything that complicates things unnecessarily, I reject. It's still about fun, not winning anything! Unfortunately, I have the feeling that not everyone feels this way.

So how do I decide as a reviewer (or prior to that as a submitter) which image to click on and which not?

1) Since I only have three votes per day, I first scroll through the list in a quick walkthrough to see if there is a picture somewhere, which I immediately notice. If so, continue with 3.
2. I then go through the list from bottom to top slowly picture by picture through whether an image in the list arouses my interest.
3. I'll look at it in full view. I evaluate the overall image quality (noise, stars, color, artifacts, overall processing)
4) I look at the overview with the image data (are they more or less complete).
5. Now I decide whether I like it better than the other pictures in the list. Then I click on it.

This can also be a standard object such as M 106 or M 42. Either the painting has something or it doesn't. This is where the "taste" comes into play. Exclusion criteria for me are

- All images whose data was not acquired by the user (Hubble, downloaded raw data)
- Pictures without the most important information (location, equipment, exposure data)
- Overprocessed images which unclean edges, denoise artefacts, etc.

In my opinion, there is no need to make it more complicated. smile

Greetings
Jens
Hi Jens!
My workflow is somehow similar to yours.
I try to avoid any personal bias (oh no, not again another M42/Monkeyhead/Cirrus/etc.).
I'm also a more conservative submitter. Means I don't like to much pink or red images for effects. I like a well balanced "natural" impression.
I only submit yesterday's images to manage these avalanches of pics every day.
I also concur to you that this process needs no complication.
Edited 28 Feb, 2018 15:53
jeffbax
28 Feb, 2018 21:51
HY, it is just a question of personnal judgment.

This one (which I realy like ) is TOPICK :



And mine is not :



So what, shall I be Angry ?

Not at all, my first think is about the chance we have to share different visions of the same object.
I like my Image , I worked hard on it. But not in the goal of a top PICK, IOTD, AAPOD, PRICE or medal. I just like it like this. Because it brings a feeling.

Everything else is out of my scope smile

Sorry for the french accent. smile

smile JF
Edited 01 Mar, 2018 13:16
whwang
02 Mar, 2018 02:54
Josh Smith
Not Top Pick
Top Pick
Saw a familiar image here.   smile  The author of that image just completed his 1-year term as a judge.  During that one year, he specified not to join any competition in his user preference page.  That option was unchecked after he finished his term and returned as a normal user.  However, the system still blocked his images from entering the selection processes.  This system error was later corrected by Salvatore.  Of course, even if this particular image entered the selection process, it's always possible for it to not be selected, as the submitters/reviewers may see some flaws in it.
Atti79
03 Mar, 2018 20:38
Hi @ all,

Just my toughts as a beginner…

I would like to have taken into account what beginners do with their small budget equipment, when selecting a Top-Pic or an IOTD. Maybe, there have to be two categories for that in the future.
Just for my sake as a beginner:
If I'm not investing in expensive equipment, my aim to achieve a Top-Pic or an IOTD is never achievable and never would, even if my skills in data processing are top of noch.

My thoughts are, to promote those newbies/beginners, lacking on equuipment, with some kind of reward as well.

Thank you for reading and always CS,
toby
AtmosFearIC
03 Mar, 2018 20:51
Hello Tobias,

As one of the judges I can say that I definitely take the equipment used into consideration for IOTD.
Top Picks are out of my hands but I do know that the reviewers have the same stance, or some of them anyway smile
dvj
03 Mar, 2018 22:40
I would go back and ask: Why an IOTD at all?  This has always been a mystery to me.

When someone recently wrote to me that my 50 tile mosaic of Orion  should be submitted to AB, it would surely win the IOTD, I was a bit offended.  I don't need to win anything.    My image stands on it's own  perfection in my mind.
Astroholic
05 Mar, 2018 07:45
Tobias Artinger
Hi @ all,Just my toughts as a beginner…

I would like to have taken into account what beginners do with their small budget equipment, when selecting a Top-Pic or an IOTD. Maybe, there have to be two categories for that in the future.
Just for my sake as a beginner:
If I'm not investing in expensive equipment, my aim to achieve a Top-Pic or an IOTD is never achievable and never would, even if my skills in data processing are top of noch.

My thoughts are, to promote those newbies/beginners, lacking on equuipment, with some kind of reward as well.

Thank you for reading and always CS,
toby
Hi Tobias!
On one hand I find it understandable when small budget photographers say they can't compete with the guys with big purses and bigger telescopes, cameras, etc.
On the other hand - and please don't take this personal, no pun intended - it sounds to me like "everybody deserves a price". If someone has a slower scope s/he must do more frames, if necessary two or three nights instead of just a couple of hours in one night.
To illustrate this: I submittet Thor's Helmet by NorthField
https://www.astrobin.com/336165/0/
It has a color gradient, background is full of drizzles, but it's rich of details and quite good for his telescope (100mm f6) and it took him 13+ hours shooting frames.
I doubt that my submission will make to the IOTD, but I find it noteworthy.
As I former stated, I only vote for yesterday's pics. To me that's most fair to all photographers as otherwise, at least it concerns to me, most votes go to the newest images. If I vote in the morning or at noon, there are tons of new images coming til the end of the day. Will anybody or a larger number of submitters revise his decission when he sees new images in the evening?
Back to you, Tobias, where should we distinguish between small budget and big budget astronomers, small toyed and big toyed astronomers, home growned or remote growned images, perfect frames from a colaboration ("AstroWest"? Sorry, can't remember their name) under a perfect sky and not-so-perfect frames from someones own equipment under a not-so-perfect sky?
Discussing this topic reminds me of opening Pandora's Box.
Edited 05 Mar, 2018 09:52
AtmosFearIC
05 Mar, 2018 09:57
There are some really nice images taken with budget setups.

https://www.astrobin.com/full/335575/0/
https://www.astrobin.com/full/335018/B/

Just go through some of the recent Top Picks and you’ll find a fair number of galaxies show with GSO 8” RC, KAF-8300 sensors and Sky Watcher EQ6 that are amazing!
Edited 05 Mar, 2018 13:54
Atti79
08 Mar, 2018 14:59
Gernot Semmer
Hi Tobias!
On one hand I find it understandable when small budget photographers say they can't compete with the guys with big purses and bigger telescopes, cameras, etc.
On the other hand - and please don't take this personal, no pun intended - it sounds to me like "everybody deserves a price". If someone has a slower scope s/he must do more frames, if necessary two or three nights instead of just a couple of hours in one night.
To illustrate this: I submittet Thor's Helmet by NorthField
https://www.astrobin.com/336165/0/
It has a color gradient, background is full of drizzles, but it's rich of details and quite good for his telescope (100mm f6) and it took him 13+ hours shooting frames.
I doubt that my submission will make to the IOTD, but I find it noteworthy.
As I former stated, I only vote for yesterday's pics. To me that's most fair to all photographers as otherwise, at least it concerns to me, most votes go to the newest images. If I vote in the morning or at noon, there are tons of new images coming til the end of the day. Will anybody or a larger number of submitters revise his decission when he sees new images in the evening?
Back to you, Tobias, where should we distinguish between small budget and big budget astronomers, small toyed and big toyed astronomers, home growned or remote growned images, perfect frames from a colaboration ("AstroWest"? Sorry, can't remember their name) under a perfect sky and not-so-perfect frames from someones own equipment under a not-so-perfect sky?
Discussing this topic reminds me of opening Pandora's Box.
Hi Gernot!
Thank you for your long answer on this. It's not my intention to win a prize as I'm a beginner in astrophotography, but the question in my mind was, what can be done about those, who began an improved themselves over a year or two. Not that I want to have a prize for my sake. My personal prize is that I have somehow enough images collected until the end of 2018, to create my own calendar for 2019, printed for all of my family, friends and those who are interested in.
Yes, the separation between beginner/pro, low budget equipment or such is not an easy one. If this can ever be achieved. I'm unconcerned about that. I am happy, not to be one of the judges. smile

taken June 2017

taken in February 2018





Nevertheless, it's a long road improving myself and my equipment. I'm quite happy with my results up to this point. Never thought of getting these results that quickly after kicking of in January 2017. smile
Atti79
08 Mar, 2018 15:08
Colin
There are some really nice images taken with budget setups.https://www.astrobin.com/full/335575/0/
https://www.astrobin.com/full/335018/B/

Just go through some of the recent Top Picks and you’ll find a fair number of galaxies show with GSO 8” RC, KAF-8300 sensors and Sky Watcher EQ6 that are amazing!
Hi Colin,

Thank you for pointing out these images. They are really well done, but for me, there is some blotchiness around. But this please take as just my 2 cents on it. But the equipment for taking images is not equal to those who only use DSLR cameras. I made a filter for searching purposes, just to find out, what can be achieved with my equipment, compared to others. And well hey, my thought was, that I'm inbound somehow. smile
150mm aperture and DSLR
trobison
09 Mar, 2018 07:13
I think the statement of treating locations, and level equipment used interesting.  Compare an experienced photographer, with a camera to someone not quite as experienced, again with the same camera.   One photographer may be able to make their instrument sing, and other…, perhaps not as much.

As both photographers and astro-imagers mature, honing their craft, their technical ability and chest of available tools simply increases through experience.  They simply become more judicious with their own work, and perhaps raising the bar for themselves.

Personally, if I go back and reprocess older images, they may often look better.  It’s not the collection of the data in this example as it is the exact same data.   The difference is the experiences gathered overtime that improve the final result.  Same data, different result.  So why complicate stuff by potentially alienating imagers and their work based on their equipment or where they choose to perform their craft?

It’s all about having fun, and making pretty images to share with family and friends.  It’s a hobby that I enjoy, and it’s cheaper than getting that star cruiser to explore the cosmos to take in those close-up vistas.

Gosh, which category does this go….  
 
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