Here come the results from the survey!

Magellen
07 Mar, 2018 18:19
Steve Milne
There are not that many people agitating for change. I think that that is because most folks agree that the system is not broken.
There are not many people agitating against change here either.

Roberto Colombari
People don't like too much to write here in the forum.
Hmm … I can only speak for myself, but I contributed to the discussion (once) in the "manifesto" thread and I filled Salvas survey. I feel like this is enough. Some other folks have made numerous and eloquent statements, but this is mostly repeating the same or similar arguments. So for me there is no need to fuel that fire and Robertos statement is true - as far as I am concerned.
jeffbax
07 Mar, 2018 19:34
Hy astronomers.

I don't understand everything in details, but I think I have caught the main ideas.

I am thinking about a good way to get retired earlier than I am supposed to.

Some of you could buy a kind of UBER astronomy. I can do something like this to help, so I can get money to share with the sky at home. Home and sky, this is my very personnal dream, and nobody is called to share this idea.

Is there a chance  for this buisness ?

Clear skies (at home) smile

JF
gnomus
07 Mar, 2018 19:46
Jeffbax Home telescope
Hy astronomers.I don't understand everything in details, but I think I have caught the main ideas.

I am thinking about a good way to get retired earlier than I am supposed to.

Some of you could buy a kind of UBER astronomy. I can do something like this to help, so I can get money to share with the sky at home. Home and sky, this is my very personnal dream, and nobody is called to share this idea.

Is there a chance  for this buisness ?

Clear skies (at home) smile

JF
Why not?  I'm all for free enterprise.
jeffbax
07 Mar, 2018 20:25
OK steve, you are right. I will think about this as I should retire in a few years under a dark sky smile

This topic is very complicated. Do you like cars or do you like driving a car ? Very existential question smile No one has the answer, but everyone is free to feel something personal about it. I don't think this discusion can end on astrobin. So keep on sharing all the pictures without categories.

JF
Edited 07 Mar, 2018 20:43
gnomus
07 Mar, 2018 21:32
Jeffbax Home telescope
OK steve, you are right. I will think about this as I should retire in a few years under a dark sky smileThis topic is very complicated. Do you like cars or do you like driving a car ? Very existential question smile No one has the answer, but everyone is free to feel something personal about it. I don't think this discusion can end on astrobin. So keep on sharing all the pictures without categories.

JF
Not a big fan of cars Jeff, but I know that some folks have a fetishistic attraction to certain makes and models.
morefield
08 Mar, 2018 05:36
Salvatore,

I like your plan and hope you can pull off Astrobin as your full time gig.   Better for you and better for us.   We spend a ton of money on hardware and software so I don’t see and issue with a small amount of money to be spent on a place to host images, get ideas, and learn from others.

Maybe you could consider running a live conference as a part of an expanded Astrobin.  You’ve a got nice tight community here as a base and I believe interest in AP is growing.   Just an out there thought…

Kevin
Astroholic
08 Mar, 2018 08:19
Hi Salvatore!
Thanks for the survey. Let's see what this changes will bring.
I have great doubts what the submitting stage will bring. I have the impression that it was hard to get all 15 submitters. Only a small number of astrobinners wanted to deal in depth with the images. This might result in the same situation that brought you to switch to the current 3 stages model.
KuriousGeorge
08 Mar, 2018 15:19
Salvatore Iovene
I will add the following tags/badges to be added to all images by the uploader:
  • Backyard: image acquired from home
  • Traveling: image acquired by traveling somewhere with one's equipment
  • Remote: image was acquired from home, controlling a remote setup
  • Downloaded: image was the result of post-processing data that was ordered and downloaded
  • Professional: image was the result of post-processing data download from a professional observatory
  • Other: none of the above
  • The tags/badges above will categorize the Top Picks and be available to filter searches
This is a great start! But not clear where people like John Hayes fit in? We have remote people who pay someone to do something for them. Then we have remote people who do it all without help from anyone (that will be me soon). Would I be Backyard when I'm visiting my remote site (with a home) and Remote when I'm controlling my remote site from my other home? Am I Remote when I control my backyard equipment that's 100' away from my home?

I believe the categories I suggested are more distinct as they clearly separate when you had help (how much help TBD) and when you did it all yourself. Just a thought.
Edited 08 Mar, 2018 15:25
cosmophoton
08 Mar, 2018 15:23
The categories are for images, not for people.

If an image was done remotely, with help from other people to make maintenance of the system, but without assistance to expose and download the images, then it is REMOTE.

If you travel to your site, which is usually employed to make remote images, and make images during the visit, then it is TRAVELLING.

If you make images at home remotely from your backyard  setup 100' away, it is BACKYARD.   We always consider the capacity of prompt access to the setup. (Unless, of course, you want to impress your friends with your high end technology prowess  smile )
Edited 08 Mar, 2018 16:38
AtmosFearIC
09 Mar, 2018 00:01
I am currently working on a 4 panel mosaic of the Running Chicken Nebula. The Ha I am taking from my HEAVILY light polluted suburban backyard. The RGB I’ll either be taking from my darksite 1.5 hours away or at a star party in 8 days.

When using both, what category does that come under?
trobison
09 Mar, 2018 05:59
This is a hobby that I truly enjoy.  I can only hope that Astrobin remains fresh, and does not follow the politics an general immaturely on other forums.  That really takes the fun out of such an interesting and challenging hobby.
Edited 09 Mar, 2018 07:14
cosmophoton
09 Mar, 2018 11:16
Colin
I am currently working on a 4 panel mosaic of the Running Chicken Nebula. The Ha I am taking from my HEAVILY light polluted suburban backyard. The RGB I’ll either be taking from my darksite 1.5 hours away or at a star party in 8 days.When using both, what category does that come under?
The system should allow the entry of mixed categories for the same image, when needed, for the purpose of classification and search. For the aim of competition, the highest rank (Backyard < Traveling < Remote < Downloaded < Professional) should be employed.
Edited 09 Mar, 2018 11:41
rob77
09 Mar, 2018 11:26
I was writing the same suggestion as Luiz's smile
McComas
09 Mar, 2018 16:07
I love this debate and will see where this all goes. I have been doing this for a year, I don't have my own gear yet less my wide angle lens. That's down the road. But here is a thought. What about a contest where those who want to try gets the same RAW data. The end point.. who gets the IOTD from the same data. That's a contest on processing. Just a thought. Clear Skies to all of us.  smile
siovene
09 Mar, 2018 18:10
Van H. McComas
I love this debate and will see where this all goes. I have been doing this for a year, I don't have my own gear yet less my wide angle lens. That's down the road. But here is a thought. What about a contest where those who want to try gets the same RAW data. The end point.. who gets the IOTD from the same data. That's a contest on processing. Just a thought. Clear Skies to all of us.  smile
That would indeed be part of the planned custom contests module.
YobSnob
09 Mar, 2018 19:33
Wow, sorry I missed the survey - I wasn't even aware of it.  Where the heck was I?  lol.  But thank you for a very interesting and informative message.  smile

Chuck
jcoldrey
12 Mar, 2018 00:08
Thanks for sharing the results of a well conceived survey Salvatore.
AstroBin is very well calibrated to AP needs, and has a fantastic community … as reflected by the comments above.
Deeply appreciated.
BastiH
12 Mar, 2018 16:16
Hi Everybody,

Salvatore, thank you for the hard work and all your efforts!

As to the fairness debate; if I get this correctly, the core problem is that we have different economic conditions to start with that put limits to our possibilities. This is omnipresent in market-economic systems. Freedom of an individual in a community and community-wide equality are conflictive values. In a completely fair scenario, it would be necessary to only compare images taken with hardware of the same specifications and quality under the same conditions…imagine this, not only would 50% of the images that are posted here be M42 and M31 (and I don't exclude mine) but also all taken with an 8" newtonian and a KAF8300 or EOS1000 under a bortle scale 4 sky… smile  I think to some extent unfairness is the price that we have to pay for diversity and (in contrast to some real-life inequalities) I'm happy about the diversity here even if I may never get an IOTD. smile

Basti
rob77
12 Mar, 2018 16:32
Hi Basti,
the concept, at least for me, is slightly different.
It's not purely a matter of "money", while more a matter of typology.
If you use purchase data, for instance, you are doing quite a different thing than those who collect the data with an end-to-end process (from setting up your equipment, to collect photons and processing the data).
It doesn't mean that the firsts are better than these latters of viceversa, simply they are two branches of the same hobby.

Cheers
Astroholic
12 Mar, 2018 16:36
Luiz Duczmal
The categories are for images, not for people.If an image was done remotely, with help from other people to make maintenance of the system, but without assistance to expose and download the images, then it is REMOTE.

If you travel to your site, which is usually employed to make remote images, and make images during the visit, then it is TRAVELLING.

If you make images at home remotely from your backyard  setup 100' away, it is BACKYARD.   We always consider the capacity of prompt access to the setup. (Unless, of course, you want to impress your friends with your high end technology prowess  smile )

Hello Luiz!
I think this is a good example how to drive a working system into big confusion.
Maybe not filling in all basic information, like the number of frames and subframes, exposure time, etc. and location, might exclude an image from the pick list for submitting.
rob77
12 Mar, 2018 16:39
Gernot Semmer
Hello Luiz!I think this is a good example how to drive a working system into big confusion.
Maybe not filling in all basic information, like the number of frames and subframes, exposure time, etc. and location, might exclude an image from the pick list for submitting.
Which is correct, IMHO. If you don't fill the required basic data the image shouldn't go on in the process.
Consider, anyway, that it can be simply implemented a multiple choice combobox where users choose their image typology (backyard, remote, purchase, pro, etc…smile.

Cheers
tolgagumus
12 Mar, 2018 16:48
And what do you do if you mix data from different sources?
rob77
12 Mar, 2018 16:50
Luiz made the following suggestion few days ago, not so bad IMO.

Luiz Duczmal
Luiz Duczmal # 10 Mar, 2018 07:16 Colin I am currently working on a 4 panel mosaic of the Running Chicken Nebula. The Ha I am taking from my HEAVILY light polluted suburban backyard. The RGB I’ll either be taking from my darksite 1.5 hours away or at a star party in 8 days.When using both, what category does that come under? The system should allow the entry of mixed categories for the same image, when needed, for the purpose of classification and search. For the aim of competition, the highest rank (Backyard < Traveling < Remote < Downloaded < Professional) should be employed.

Cheers
BastiH
12 Mar, 2018 17:00
Roberto Colombari
Hi Basti,the concept, at least for me, is slightly different.
It's not purely a matter of "money", while more a matter of typology.
If you use purchase data, for instance, you are doing quite a different thing than those who collect the data with an end-to-end process (from setting up your equipment, to collect photons and processing the data).
It doesn't mean that the firsts are better than these latters of viceversa, simply they are two branches of the same hobby.

Cheers
Hi Roberto,

I absolutely agree with you if we are talking of typology which can be developed using objective criteria. I just got the impression that part of the debate was rather dealing with fairness and therefore a moral claim that is pretty hard if not impossible to develop distinct criteria for under the given circumstances.

CS

Basti
patrickgilliland
12 Mar, 2018 23:23
Roberto Colombari
the same hobby
The simplest explanation of things getting over complicated smile
Categories
Pros
1. It is useful to see if you want to understand the data collection source.
Cons
1. It in effect penalises remote users for spending their hard earned money on more regular data.
2. It promotes division.
3. It promotes any 'existing' bias.
4. To some degree, it seems to me anyway to say collecting the data yourself merits extra reward.  From my perspective data is just pots of paint, you still have to make the image.  Whether I bought the paint or sent someone else to the hardware shop really does not matter to me. 99% of the skill is the processing of the data not the collection (note I say this as someone with 3, soon to be 5 remote setups, fully automated and with more devices and processes to consider than a majority of people have, so I would be right up there if this was a genuine category!)

The point:  If you say X you more often then not imply there is a Y!  In this scenario, you risk one being viewed more highly than the other, or worse still two camps each with opposing views.  Hopefully, this won't happen but if you create the 'risk' often it will be realised.

Before it is introduced I would like to see an unequivocal definition of the purpose and real value.  The risks are division, not a good thing for any community.

BastiH
dealing with fairness
What is fair?  In your eyes x in mine y.  I have empathy and respect for all those hampered by budget, location and other hindrances even skill levels.  I don't want to segregate those with low budgets, light polluted skies and less experience of into some dark corner of AB.  I want them out here with everyone else being part of the community.  The same as I don't want to the top imagers forming their own little elite corner.

Finally, introducing categories I.E. Moving from the current no categories with its volume of complaints, to many categories or combinations of categories.  I wonder if adding will just create more entities to complain about in many more unique and niche ways.

Ultimately, these are just pondering and I have no say, I see Salva seems to have already agreed with the idea. Maybe I missed it but without a defined purpose I can't help but feel it turns 'the same hobby' into 'many hobbies' those with a strong bias will now have the tools to further amplify there bias.  Those without this biaswill probably rarely register the new criteria.

To drive that last point home, maybe not intentional but the statements like "the highest rank (Backyard < Traveling < Remote < Downloaded < Professional)" are already showing the bias by ordering what data ranks highest.  A slippery slope!

Cheers
Edited 12 Mar, 2018 23:25
 
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