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I agree

IOTD and Top Picks Manifesto

siovene
28 Jun, 2018 14:00
Ray Caro
Hello !I do not understand all the subtleties here (using Google translation). When I'm at home, in my garden, I put "Backyard" and when I take my equipment in my car, even for 1 km, I put "Traveler". Is it correct ?

Thank you !
Yes.
gnomus
28 Jun, 2018 14:25
Carastro
Can I please ask what category I should put for images done at a location where I travel to but use the equipment already set up and provided, but I captured the images myself.i.e. at Olly's place in France.  These are five years ago but I recently re-processed some of them.

I have currently put Traveller, but I think that implies you took the equipment and set it up yourself.

Carole

I hesitate to re-enter this thread, but I am surprised that this is categorised as ‘Traveller’.  I imagined that this would be when you take your own equipment to a site other than home, set the equipment up yourself, then image (as per the example a couple of posts later).  At Olly’s place the equipment is someone else’s (either Olly’s or one of his partnerships) and is already set up.  In many respects it is much closer to ‘downloaded’ data, albeit you are turning up in person to collect it!

Categorise it as you wish, of course.  I don’t really mind since I think these different categories ‘solve’ very little.  And - notably - they failed to prevent what appears to have been a bogus submission (from someone claiming to be a ‘backyard’ imager).
carastro
28 Jun, 2018 15:07
I agree its not strictly speaking as Traveller, which is why I asked the question, but its not downloaded data either.
There doesn't seem to be a category for it which again is why I asked the question.

I have put Traveller as a temporary measure only because that is the closest thing to it.

They are old images anyway and certainly not going to be included in the IOD.

Carole
Edited 28 Jun, 2018 15:10
gnomus
28 Jun, 2018 16:04
That’s fine by me (not that my opinion is any more relevant than anyone else’s).  I wasn’t arguing that it was downloaded data.  But the criticism levelled against ‘downloaders’ is that it is not their gear and they have not set it up.  That being the case, the Olly data is (I emphasise again)  closer (in my view) to ‘downloaded’ data than it is to ‘traveller’ (own gear, own set up, anywhere other than backyard).  Of course, one of the many absurdities of these categories is that if/when Olly posts his version of the same data, then it is ‘backyard’.

All of this is, I repeat, only my opinion.  I try to put as full a description as I can in the text of my own images.  This gives much more detail and context than the ‘tickbox’ categories.  I don’t think the categories are helpful (for reasons discussed above) and, as such, I won’t use them.
Edited 28 Jun, 2018 16:34
carastro
28 Jun, 2018 16:49
Well we agree on some things but not on others.

I am totally disinterested in IOD since the furore and the final decision, but I do like to see categories which is why I am keen to get mine right.

One of the reasons I like to know details and  location is when I do a search of images to find out what is possible with my kit in locations I am able to use and feel I should extend the same courtesy to others.

The images concerned were taken about 5 years ago I think even before IOD had started and I don't think at the time I had stated the location and details, which I must go back and do.  I don't think Olly has ever posted my images because he had no hand in the capture, and it wasn't a joint project, he just showed me how to use his equipment and software and that was that and a couple of times switched it off for me if he was still up while the last subs were coming through.

My argument about downloaded data is that you don't actually do the work of capture yourself.  There is also the element of it not being your equipment too as you say and where my concern about categorizing my Les Granges images lies.

Carole
Edited 28 Jun, 2018 17:17
gnomus
28 Jun, 2018 17:21
Carastro
Well we agree on some things but not on others……

…. My argument about downloaded data is that you don't actually do the work of capture yourself, its like using some-one else's data and then processing it and calling it your own (albeit with a declaration of the source of the data).  There is also the element of it not being your equipment too as you say and where my concern about categorizing my Les Granges images lies.Carole

I’m sure we agree on most things.   However, I had misunderstood your position with regard to ‘captured yourself’, since I assumed that this included setting up the equipment (be it yours or someone else’s).  Given that the gear at Olly’s is already set up, I’m not entirely clear what is involved in ‘captured yourself’ when there.
carastro
28 Jun, 2018 18:34
Its a grey area, we better leave it at that.  I will wait to hear what Salvatore says about where it should be categorised and whether there should even be a separate category for it.

This was just a one off holiday to get access to some lower targets and not my normal approach.

Carole
gnomus
28 Jun, 2018 19:13
Grey, perhaps, but I am advised that there are several shades of grey (the precise number escapes me at the moment).  On the few occasions we have been to Olly’s, he has tended to sleep in his dual-rig shed.  He says that this is so he can keep an eye on focus - he focusses manually which has some S&M overtones to my mind.  I have become increasingly convinced, however, that he is standing guard - protecting his equipment from any clumsy intervention on our part.
Edited 28 Jun, 2018 19:15
2ghouls
28 Jun, 2018 19:26
Carastro
whether there should even be a separate category for it.
I think it would useful to have a separate category that would cover this kind of thing (vacation rentals with astro equipment) AND club observatories. Club observatories are similar to my mind because the equipment is usually all set up, but typically requires the knowledge and expertise of the operator to actually run an imaging session with it. This is what differentiates it slightly from any of the "Downloaded" categories as I understand them. In addition, I am often using my own camera and laptop with my club's mount/telescope. I am not sure what to call this category. For now, I've been putting things like this that don't fit under "Other-> None of the above" but I've noticed when you choose that option the "Data Source" field disappears entirely from the public view. I agree that there are shades of gray here, and we can't have so many categories that people refuse to use it, but I think one more could help many people. I welcome any suggestions for what this category could be called, or discussion about why it is not necessary to add another category.  smile
carastro
28 Jun, 2018 19:45
Thank you Nico.

What about
Rented Equipment (its not precise but anything else would be too long winded)

Carole
Edited 28 Jun, 2018 19:52
gnomus
28 Jun, 2018 21:35
Regarding equipment, there coulld be multiple categories including (but not limited to): fully-owned; owned in partnership with one or more; rented; on-loan/trial; mixture of above.

But if we are going to do that, why not the following?  ……………

With regard to effort, we could keep the current categories, but I think that ‘Backyard (set up and tear down every night)’ is very different from ‘Backyard (own observatory)’.

Regarding set-up, we could have: set up yourself; set up with one or more partners; set up by someone else.

Regarding level of computer assistance, we could have: manual guiding (Y/N); plate solving (Y/N); computer assisted meridian flip (Y/N); autofocus (Y/N).  To this there should perhaps be an enquiry as to whether or not the imager stayed up throughout the imaging run or used automation so that the imager could sleep through the night.

Processing can also be: a fully individual endeavour; processed in collaboration with one or more; processed under instruction….. and so on.

Or we could just trust imagers to give as honest an account of what they did in the ‘description’, and forget about the tickbox approach.  Those who wish to engage in fraudulent practice are not going to be caught out by the categories system (as we have just seen).
carastro
28 Jun, 2018 21:51
I really can't be bothered to respond that.
Wish I hadn't asked a polite question now.

Carole
Edited 29 Jun, 2018 08:52
2ghouls
29 Jun, 2018 04:14
Carastro
Rented Equipment
Thanks Carole! I like it.  smile Gotta keep the categories simple, and I think one could argue it fits with club-owned gear since I do have to pay yearly dues in order to use the observatory.
Clear Skies, Nico
Edited 29 Jun, 2018 06:07
carastro
29 Jun, 2018 08:54
Just need Salvatore to spot it now.

Carole
sixburg
29 Jun, 2018 13:15
Steve, well made point.
Rudy_Pohl
06 Mar, 2019 13:51
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I would add my 2 cents regarding the use of professionally imaged data from observatories, etc..

Despite my best efforts and intentions, recurring health issues have forced me to give up deep sky imaging for good and I've recently sold off all my gear including my beloved HEQ5 Pro mount which I just acquired this Fall. However, having been a long-time photographer and digital artist and working with Photoshop for many years and in Pixinsight for two, I've come to really enjoy processing astro-images.

As a result of having to give up astro-imaging I have begun to experiment with Hubble, Liverpool and Subaru data and can confirm what Ruben and Ricardo have said, that this is a LOT more difficult, skills demanding and time intensive than it might first appear, especially if the goal is to produce truly stunning images that showcase the celestial objects and make them inspiring to the viewer.

Gathering and processing data from various professional sources would allow me to pursue my artistic desires plus  keep my hand in astrophotography and stay involved in this community which I have come to enjoy. I would be more than happy to forego ever receiving an IOTD award, but I would find it a bit of challenge to have my efforts looked upon as "cheating." Just a thought…

Best regards,
Rudy Pohl
Ottawa
 
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