# 08 Dec, 2018 18:39
Historical moment 😇as I now start working on the new equipment module on AstroBin. I will call it "equipment" instead of "gear", as it's standard on AstroBin, for differentiation purposes.
Here's a birds-eye-view of the main deliverables of this project:
Any thoughts? Any wish list? Any volunteers for the review team?
I also need to know if you have any ideas to incentivize people to associate their legacy gear items to the new ACEI. I can send them emails once a week to bug them, but I don't know if it helps, especially for inactive users who don't contribute anymore and will just mark it as SPAM
One option is to let everybody associate everybody else's item, and the system automatically propose assiciations based on automatically detected similarities to the review team…
I'm all ears for your brainstorming!
# 08 Dec, 2018 19:40
Thank you, Salvatore, and good luck for the implementation! That will hopefully lead to a much better AB with great usability.|
A few suggestions:
# 08 Dec, 2018 22:11
I have identified the following categories and subcategories for equipment items, please let me know if I'm missing something! It should only be for items that are quite directly involved with the acquisition and processing of images.|
# 08 Dec, 2018 22:30
|Hi Salvatore, maybe we need a detector subcategory for CMOS cameras, besides the DSLR and mirror-less cameras.|
# 08 Dec, 2018 23:13
# 09 Dec, 2018 01:20
Good idea Salvatore !|
If I can help in the review team, it will be a pleasure.
# 09 Dec, 2018 06:25
I’d be happy to volunteer if it starts rolling out in the next month as I will essentially have no personal responsibilities starting in a few days and ending in mid-January. Any other time might be more difficult but still doable for me.|
I would also suggest a category for CMOS as a distinct category for detectors.
As of now, I have two questions:
# 09 Dec, 2018 07:26
SiggaHow do you use a book during the acquisition of an image directly? I guess if your tripod is leaning to one side and you put a book under one leg… 😂I think that we should only include the equipment items that can be associated to an image. Because even if you own a book and you used the knowledge you acquired from it to take an image, it doesn't make much sense to say that the book was used to produce that image. For instance, I don't tink you would be able to learn anything by doing a search for all images "acquired" with a certain book.
Accessories_Miscellaneous I agree.
Softare_Miscellaneus… can you name a software that is directly used to produce an image, and is not one of the 3 specified above?
Ethan & Geo Chappel
Ethan & Geo Chappel
That was my original idea but I think we need to discuss it further.
# 09 Dec, 2018 07:30
|Sempre se posso esserti utile in queste tue grandi idee, nel mio piccolo mi metto a tua disposizione, ciao c.colombo|
# 09 Dec, 2018 10:21
|My biggest wish for AB is coming true of course i'll volunteer for the review Team. If there is the need to do some initial work on the ACEI DB just count me in as well.|
# 09 Dec, 2018 12:36
Book comment almost make coffee come out of my nose as laughing, I cede point _Book not needed. You very cheeky today :-)
For software was thinking something like Stellarium was not covered in categories but perhaps I am wrong.
I think excellent idea to do this and if can assist I pleased to do so.
# 09 Dec, 2018 13:56
Die Launische DivaCorrect me if I'm wrong, but isn't CMOS a type of sensor, like CCD is? CCD cameras use CCD sensors, while DSLRs use CMOS sensors. I will add a MIRRORLESS subcategory tho, good one.
# 09 Dec, 2018 14:32
Salvatore IoveneI don't think it is a good idea to use the term CCD for a dedicated astro camera which uses a CMOS sensor. Such are more versatile and can also be used for planetary imaging. They differ from the DSLR cameras since they are dedicated for astrophotography, and are usually cooled and monochrome. Also, the workflow for calibrating and integrating data from such sensors may be different from their CCD counterparts.
# 09 Dec, 2018 14:54
Die Launische Diva
EQUIPMENT_ITEM_SUBCATEGORY_DETECTOR_CCD = "DETECTOR_CCD"EQUIPMENT_ITEM_SUBCATEGORY_DETECTOR_DSLR = "DETECTOR_DSLR"EQUIPMENT_ITEM_SUBCATEGORY_DETECTOR_FILM = "DETECTOR_FILM"EQUIPMENT_ITEM_SUBCATEGORY_DETECTOR_GUIDER = "DETECTOR_GUIDER"
It look like I'm saying that a CCD is a dedicated astrocamera that uses a CCD sensor. Even if we forget for a secon the different kinds of sensors, ultimately an astrophotographer will either have a CCD Camera, a DSLR camera, a mirrorless camera, or a film camera. Isn't that right?
# 09 Dec, 2018 15:21
Salvatore IoveneMaybe it's the word detector that confuses me. From the sites of the following three manufacturers:
# 09 Dec, 2018 18:50
Die Launische Diva
Oh I see now. I didn't know that you could buy a dedicated astronomy camera with a CMOS sensor, so I made the assumption "dedicated = CCD".
So does it work if I organize them like this?
Then the sensor type can be a property of this or that equipment item.
# 09 Dec, 2018 18:59
Stellarium would fall under observatory contorl (yes, you can connect to a mount and slew it with Stellarium). If you have used for planning I don't think it belongs to the acquisition details of an image… might as well then add Google to the list
# 09 Dec, 2018 18:59
I agree that there needs to be a separate camera type for CMOS. Calling a dedicated astronomy cooled CMOS camera a CCD is just wrong. I think you could argue that there may be some people who try to put their DSLR in CMOS category, as technically it is, but with the separate option of DSLR also there I don't think it would be a problem. I find it much more troublesome to be calling a QHY168C a CCD or a DSLR, which are currently the only options that are close to it. I like the idea of "Dedicated Astronomy Camera" with the Sensor Type property, as long as it is easy to search through that property. A lot of times I would like to search only dedicated astro CMOS, for example. Also worth adding here if not already noted, there should be a Color or Mono property here too.|
Back to the original post, this is great and as a professional librarian that takes a certain joy and satisfaction in proper cataloging, this has been the part of Astrobin that has bothered me most.
Count me in as a volunteer for the review team, or any other means I might be needed.
# 09 Dec, 2018 20:55
Salvatore IoveneMight be good to have a bibliography of recommended books/resources though, there are a lot of books out there, but a lot of them are poor quality.
# 09 Dec, 2018 21:16
Craig RodgersCompletely off-topic but I agree. AstroBin really has a lot of potential to be a resource for new astrophotographers. I don't have time to coordinate any of that, but I am willing to facilitate the content creation via a wiki/articles section.
# 10 Dec, 2018 06:24
Salvatore IoveneDie Launische DivaOh I see now. I didn't know that you could buy a dedicated astronomy camera with a CMOS sensor, so I made the assumption "dedicated = CCD".
I think it is valuable and important to distinguish between CMOS and CCD for dedicated astronomy cameras. This distinction is more important for me than DSLR vs mirrorless. If you wanted a high level distinction I would have CCD, CMOS, Film, and Digital non-astronomy camera’s.
CMOS based astronomy cameras are probably the most commonly purchased astronomy cameras today. It is the hottest segment of the market and indeed there is question about the future of CCD sensors for dedicated astronomy cameras.
# 10 Dec, 2018 13:30
related to DSLR - would it make sense to distinguish between "modified" and "not modified"?
# 10 Dec, 2018 13:38
Yes, but not globally, unless the camera comes as modified straight from the shelf. The database equipment should be about things that you can buy (for instance no DIY stuff, for that we also need to figure out a solution).|
So on top of the camera that you select from the equipment database, you can add your own properties that are only relevant for the specific item that you possess.
So yeah I will add that but being careful that there's a clear distinction about the scope of the properties.
# 10 Dec, 2018 14:34
|Thank's for clarification, Sal.|
# 12 Dec, 2018 03:06
Let me give some historical prospect. CMOS and CCD are different technologies. In old days, CCD gave cleaner images. So all dedicated cooled astro-cameras used CCD. Even DSLRs once used CCD and those with CCD were considered as "better." Later CMOS technology quickly caught up, thanks to Canon and then Sony. Now DSLR and mirrorless exclusively use CMOS. 15 years ago, when hobbyists bought DSLRs, some of them ask whether the model use CMOS or CCD. This was asked because at that time, whether it's CCD or CMOS mattered. Now it doesn't matter any more and people do not ask such a question any more, because CMOS is much better than CCD and every DSLR uses CMOS.|
Today's dedicated astro-cameras still primarily use CCD, for several reasons. The most sensible one is that, it's still very hard for small camera companies such as SBIG, FLI, QHY, ZWO… etc (cf. Nikon, Pentax) to get large-format (APSC and up) CMOS chips from Sony and Canon. Kodak CCD is lousy and expansive, but can be obtained by those small companies. This is one (and perhaps the more important one) of the reasons why we still see CCD in the astro market. Nevertheless, CMOS started to appear in the astro-camera market a few years ago, and the CMOS cameras are making impact. The astro market is small, and has great inertia against changes. So the movement to CMOS will be much slower than the commercial camera market. But it will happen, sooner than you might expect.
Like the shift from film to digital, from CCD to CMOS, there is another shift just happening this year: from DSLR to mirrorless. DSLR will disappear sooner than many of you might expect.
Now, considering all the above rapid landscape shift, it's time to ask how ACEI should place itself in this continuously changing landscape. In the digital camera world, it no longer matters whether it is CCD or CMOS. Everything is CMOS. The proof is that Salvator only listed DETECTOR_DSLR, not DETECTOR_DSLR_CCD, nor DETECTOR_DSLR_CMOS. So, what should we do to the astro-camera category? To me, DETECTOR_CCD is definitely inappropriate, because there is a parallel system that should be called DETECTOR_CMOS. It will be definitely incorrect to call ASI1600 a CCD. It's not a CCD. It's CMOS. If you accept that, the question becomes if we should have two entries: DETECTOR_CCD and DETECTOR_CMOS? Or we just unify it into DETECTOR_astro-camera (for example)?
At this moment, it also seems appropriate to have two categories DETECTOR_DSLR and DETECTOR_mirrorless. But it won't be necessary any more in 10 years. How about we just unify the two into DETECTOR_DC (digital camera), without differentiating DSLR and mirrorless?
Also, I think the boundary between cooled astro-cameras, guiders, and planetary cameras can also be very vague. I expect that we will see ambiguous cases.
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