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I agree

IOTD and Top picks

RAD
30 Aug, 2019 17:09
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.
Edited 30 Aug, 2019 17:09
matherneconnor
30 Aug, 2019 17:26
You could always become a judge yourself and be the change you want to see.

It may take up less of your time compared to your monthly thread being unhappy about likes, top picks, or IOTD. 

What makes an image "good" is very subjective. I think there are many great top picks and IOTDs right now, all of them seem to be deserving. You can't award every "good" image on astrobin a top pick or IOTD, so sometimes a really great one doesn't get an award.

This has been discussed ad nauseam, do we really need another thread for this?

Connor
RAD
30 Aug, 2019 17:34
Connor Matherne
What makes an image "good" is very subjective. I think there are many great top picks and IOTDs right now, all of them seem to be deserving. You can't award every "good" image on astrobin a top pick or IOTD, so sometimes a really great one doesn't get an award.
What I said was the same people getting them  I look at some peoples pages and they have dozens upon dozens and other people who have very excellent images have none or 1-2.  That's my point.  And I disagree about subjectivity.  If I were to judge an image it would be based on focus, exposure, guiding, lack of processing artifacts, proper palette (for broad band), saturation level, if deconvolution was used are there artifacts?  etc…etc….etc……nothing subjective about it.  As an analogy, if I was judging someones writing, I would judge how they said what they said, not WHAT they said.

How do you become a judge>
siovene
30 Aug, 2019 17:51
Rodd Dryfoos
How do you become a judge>
Near the end of the year I make a call for volunteers.
RAD
30 Aug, 2019 18:01
Thanks Salvatore
Hondo
30 Aug, 2019 18:03
Rodd Dryfoos
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.

I agree.  
Scott
Edited 30 Aug, 2019 20:33
matherneconnor
30 Aug, 2019 18:42
Scott
Rodd Dryfoos
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.
I agree.  Here are 4 recent images of VDB 141, three were a top pick and one was the IOTD.

IOTD  TP 1  TP 2  TP 3

What is wrong with mine?  My Pic

Scott

Since you asked, here are things I find in your images that I think the other images either do not have, or have to a lesser degree (this is meant to be constructive)

  • Background is nearly entirely black or clipped
  • dust for the most part is colorless or blue shifted
  • Many stars have magenta casts
  • Too much noise reduction to the background, not enough in the nebulae itself
  • Dust lacks definition and structure
  • Magenta cast across sides of the image, particularly in the bottom and right side
Personally I think every top pick you linked, and especially the IOTD (fantastic job Jean-Baptiste Auroux!), are superior images. You may feel differently, and that's totally okay. It's subjective like I mentioned above. The amount of weight people assign to likes, TPs, and IOTDs seems to really impact their enjoyment for the hobby. That should not be the case.

Connor
RAD
30 Aug, 2019 19:05
Connor Matherne
Personally I think every top pick you linked, and especially the IOTD (fantastic job Jean-Baptiste Auroux!), are superior images. You may feel differently, and that's totally okay. It's subjective like I mentioned above. The amount of weight people assign to likes, TPs, and IOTDs seems to really impact their enjoyment for the hobby. That should not be the case.
  I agree with Connor on this one–those images are better IMO than Scotts.    Sorry.  Thats not to say Scotts isn't very good.  The astrophotograpers who too those images are among the very best, with decades of experience.

It is often not the case, however.  For this example it was.
Rodd
Hondo
30 Aug, 2019 19:37
Connor Matherne
Since you asked, here are things I find in your images that I think the other images either do not have, or have to a lesser degree (this is meant to be constructive)Background is nearly entirely black or clippeddust for the most part is colorless or blue shiftedMany stars have magenta castsToo much noise reduction to the background, not enough in the nebulae itselfDust lacks definition and structureMagenta cast across sides of the image, particularly in the bottom and right sidePersonally I think every top pick you linked, and especially the IOTD (fantastic job Jean-Baptiste Auroux!), are superior images. You may feel differently, and that's totally okay. It's subjective like I mentioned above. The amount of weight people assign to likes, TPs, and IOTDs seems to really impact their enjoyment for the hobby. That should not be the case.Connor

Thanks for the constructive feedback, I will concede to 2, possibly 3 of your points but those other images are not without flaw either.  As is the case with these TP/IOTD threads, the defenders of it are usually the ones with the TPs/IOTDs, no exception here.  I notice that 99.9% of yours are not your own data and that is fine but unless you capture and process your own, well….
For the record, I have 7 AAPOD wins, 4 magazine publications, 1 astro imager of the year award, several other astro awards, and 3 TPs right here on AB.  All captured with my own equipment from my own backyard.
Edited 30 Aug, 2019 19:39
Snjór
30 Aug, 2019 19:38
Roger Federer and Serena Williams keep winning. Man City, Juventus, Bayern Munich. American football is Patriots.  Why? Is simple they better and there are astrophotographers here that better than others. They get IOTD, APOD, Top Pick.  They have nice gear, they have good software and have spent untold hours learning how to optimize gear, software and sky. This will continue regardless of who judge I think.

Continuing excellence is rewarded continually. Need learn to live with it and rather than spend time complaining try get better, try be sociable, try be polite. Astrobin meant to be fun, can learn and  see amazing images, learn skills.

Enjoy. Life is good, embrace positive.

-Sigga
Edited 30 Aug, 2019 21:02
RAD
30 Aug, 2019 22:03
Sigga
Roger Federer and Serena Williams keep winning. Man City, Juventus, Bayern Munich. American football is Patriots.  Why? Is simple they better and there are astrophotographers here that better than others. They get IOTD, APOD, Top Pick.  They have nice gear, they have good software and have spent untold hours learning how to optimize gear, software and sky. This will continue regardless of who judge I think.Continuing excellence is rewarded continually. Need learn to live with it and rather than spend time complaining try get better, try be sociable, try be polite. Astrobin meant to be fun, can learn and  see amazing images, learn skills.

Enjoy. Life is good, embrace positive.

-Sigga
couldn't disagree with you more. Comparing tennis wins with IOTD and TPs is the antithesis of what they are.  What Scott is saying, and what I have said about certain TPS and IOTD is that we disagree that they are better.  Scott’s example is not one I agree with as I stated.  But there are many that I do.
Snjór
30 Aug, 2019 22:50
Is fine I did assume  not agree. Personally I think  judges do fine job with hard task and their work (volunteer) should be appreciated rather than repeatedly criticized in a public forum.

-Sigga
matherneconnor
30 Aug, 2019 23:50
Scott
those other images are not without flaw either.

Cool, we agree then. That's why I said some had those flaws, just too a lesser degree than yours.

Scott
I notice that 99.9% of yours are not your own data and that is fine but unless you capture and process your own, well….
Well, what?

You asked for feedback on your image, I told you what could be improved with it and why the others were better. Your response was to immediately try and attack my images. Luckily I don't base my enjoyment of this hobby based on how others feel about my images.

Sigga
Personally I think  judges do fine job with hard task and their work (volunteer) should be appreciated rather than repeatedly criticized in a public forum.
Exactly. Every single time one of these threads crop up, it is a handful of angry people criticizing a team of volunteers who work pretty much daily on this. Not to mention, I can't remember a single time when one of these people complaining ever seemed to volunteer themselves. They work hard, and a lot more than they really should. But they love what they do, and care about the community. That's why they do.

They don't deserve the way people treat them here.
DanVeldhuizen
31 Aug, 2019 01:07
This only says the the quality of images on this site is that high,we can't complain it,only show appreciation to the people who spend hrs and hrs to collect/shoot data,process it to celestial art and then share for free with us,the ungrateful…

All efforts are highly appreciate,so THX A BUNCH LADIES AND GENTLE MEN ASTROPHOTOGRAPHERS! you guys rule!

D.
whwang
31 Aug, 2019 04:44
Let’s not forget that the judges/reviewers/submitters are also learning, like all of us are.  I wouldn’t blame them if they sometimes came up with a questionable IOTD to TP. No one is perfect, no matter in creating astro images or in picking ones.

Astrobin is a place where we can learn from each other and improve all together. It’s not a machine that never make mistakes.
PeterFeltóti
31 Aug, 2019 07:51
Rodd Dryfoos
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.

On the judging panel we don't see the author of the image, and as for me I never care about it. I don't remember a time when author was a factor in my selection, because my selection is objective, based on the same standards you mentioned. If you want us to select IOTD-s based on objective standards, it will happen that the same top astrophotographers got the prize. Selection based on author would be subjective even if we try to avoid multi-awarding them.
Allinthehead
31 Aug, 2019 08:58
Rodd Dryfoos
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.

I think you need a new tune…I am tired of seeing the same monthly whinge from you!
Hartmuth_Kintzel
31 Aug, 2019 11:13
Rodd Dryfoos
I think we need new judges…I am tired of seeing the same people get IOTD and TPs when there are many images as good or better posted at the same time.  This  is not supposed to be a popularity contest.

I think this is a very subjective view.
The last 4 month (148x IOTD) we had 104 diverent winners.
Only 9 persons got 3 ore more IOTD.
But this are very special cases.

Some examples:

 Niall MacNeill - Probably the best planetary imager in the community

User of high quality Remote observatories:
 Stanislav Volskiy
Terry Robison

Or simply exceptional photographers in extraordinary places (Namibia):
tommy_nawratil
Martin Junius

In fact, I think the system is working and IOTD-staff is doing a good job.

Hartmuth
Edited 31 Aug, 2019 11:34
siovene
31 Aug, 2019 12:16
Hartmuth Kintzel
In fact, I think the system is working and IOTD-staff is doing a good job.
Very nice Hartmuth, bringing facts to the table! Thanks!
tolgagumus
31 Aug, 2019 13:45
I don't know how many times this has to be explained. As judges we do not compare vdb image to vdb image. We look at what's in the TPs and pick an image from these. There can be a situation where your image of a target be better than a IOTD. But when your image was uploaded there could have been a better image of a different target.

This is why we always say this is not a competition.

Also before anyone gets all excited about being a judge, you should know that judges are automatically disqualified from TPs and IOTD. So if your goal is to get IOTDs, becoming a judge automatically increases your chances LOL of getting one.
mxcoppell
31 Aug, 2019 15:49
Wei-Hao Wang
Astrobin is a place where we can learn from each other and improve all together.

Exactly! A TP will make me happy for about an hour. But what I care more about if I handled the nebulosity and stars better this time? Am I more creative in composition and colors this time? It's all about self improvement.

Judges are all volunteers just like every other community member here. Different people have different taste. I want to make myself happy - not targeting the judges‘ taste; or this hobby is so tasteless…
Edited 31 Aug, 2019 15:51
javajunkie2121
31 Aug, 2019 22:36
wondering if there could be 2-3 lines written by judges on the objective, successful features of IOTDs/TPs….as someone who is still learning it would be great to call out specific features that caught the eyes of judges. (or even criticisms)

jeff
Ethan
31 Aug, 2019 23:59
Jeff's idea has been suggested by other people before, but I think it's still a good one.

I believe I may have brought this up last time, but I think a few changes to the IOTD back-end would address some issues without overhauling a system I think works.

–Ethan
Edited 31 Aug, 2019 23:59
mxcoppell
01 Sep, 2019 00:49
Jeff's idea is very good - increasing the transparency of the whole process. And it also provides good information for other APers to learn about improve. A few comments from the judges when deciding on TPs and IOTDs. Thumbs up!
whwang
01 Sep, 2019 05:57
I like the idea of comments from judges. My only reservation on this is that it might scare away some of those whose native language is not English from volunteering to be judges.
 
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