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Well, I think my very very scientific examination of the awards process shows that it is not AS skewed as the discussions made it out to be. I think a bigger problem with the awards process is that in the lower tiers judges can actually disqualify pictures therefore removing it from everyone's queue. I get the idea behind it but because of time zones it puts a lot of power into the hands of judges with a time zone advantage. Images could be disqualified before judges in later time zones even wake up and check the website. Or, more active judges hold more weight in the process than others who may have other commitments and cannot check Astrobin as often. Especially now that it is an opt-in system, there is no good reason for judges to remove the agency of their fellow judges in deciding what pictures they want to promote or not. Since it is all subjective anyways, why even give the option for judges to remove pictures from other judges queue? If I was a judge I would not like the fact that others could remove images from the queue all together before I even had a chance to check them out. |
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| I think we all need to get a life if we are worrying about how we get our images onto IOTD on this site. I know my images are the best I can get at any one time with the skills I have at that moment and that is all that matters |
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Robert Winslow: A "line going across the photo" will occur with own data too and doesn't make the image worthless at all. Can be a satellite, a plane (worse, plenty of them in my own data, have yet to find one in the Telescope live bundles) or a defective column or row in the sensor. This is no issue considering the capabilities of rejection algorithms and cosmetic correction. I admit that my take on these data sets may be a bit different than yours. I approach these data sets under the aspect of training and learning. So I even appreciate the occasional flaw in the data. A few months ago I would have been horrified to detect a defective column in my own setup. Now I learned that it's not a big deal and once it occurs in my own setup I don't have to throw away my camera. Clear skies Wolfgang |
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Andy Wray: I get the sentiment and while I sure hope everyone here is not in this hobby for the sake of cool little icons on their pictures, that doesn't mean as a community we should not have discussions on how to better the awards process. I always found it cool that when you get an award on Astrobin, it's essentially being recognized by your peers who know and understand the difficulties associated with this hobby. I just think the process could be slightly better is all, because short of a massive overhaul its probably close to as good as it can get right now. |
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To clarify a point about dismissals - it takes multiple dismissals (5) to remove an image from consideration. That system was created to prevent a small minority of judges from promoting an obviously unqualified image. That was a significant problem a year plus ago - you’ll see the issue if you look at the Top Picks from January 2021. To clarify another point - no, we cannot tell if an image is backyard or remote just by looking at it in the queue. Nor who took or processed it or what the integration time was. Without going into backyard vs remote, I’ll say that the only value a badge has for me is when I am researching a target to get a sense of integration time by referring to an image. And if an image was taken remotely, it is useless to me for that purpose. These days, I simply search for that object imaged by people I know and respect. |
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I always found it cool that when you get an award on Astrobin, it's essentially being recognized by your peers who know and understand the difficulties associated with this hobby. I just think the process could be slightly better is all, because short of a massive overhaul its probably close to as good as it can get right now. Well I've learned some things about the process from the recent posts. For me it's simple: - Astrophotography is the most difficult type of photography. we all can agree on that. If you process others/remote data is it still your photography? I think not...it's just processing...you didn't take a photo. - the reward system on Astrobin just needs to separate those who capture and process their own data from those who just process other data. Simple. I really wish this would come to pass. - I have some friends here in So Cal who work at JPL and NASA and just might be able to get me some unprocessed raw Hubble data...IOTD baby! Well that would be taking it to the extreme and not be fair of course. For me the rewards of capturing and processing a good image are of course the image itself. behold the glory! |
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John Favalessa: You don't need friends at JPL or NASA, the Hubble data is free and available to anyone: Welcome to the Hubble Legacy Archive (stsci.edu) Clear skies Wolfgang |
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I totally agree to John and want to add an argument, which is definitively not valid for many, but it is not deniable. If someone is very keen on getting batches on images, he is very tempted to skip the painful process of handling his own equipment, fighting flaws an weather, and "buys" the data. Doing so, this approach is a means of getting an advantage over others, who go the hard way. By saving the time of learning image acquisition, they exclusively focus on data processing with all the time available . The more arguments and analysis I read in this thread, the more I am deeply convinced, that these are two totally different categories: We see very good APs, but also see good data processors. Both are valid interests, but not the same. Both are legitimate, but should not be merged. Let me compare it to sports: In any discipline you try to equalize the conditions (e.g. having weight classes) to have a fair competition - and if you have a system of judges and more, you have a competition in place. Competition is not bad -vise versa, but you have to make it fair. |
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Dear friends, I have seen many valid arguments here for implementing categories for awards and for some keeping the system as it is now. Over the years we had many discussions (some of them got emotionally derailed) but after all I got the impression, that Salvatore is not inclined to provide categories for IOTD. See also https://welcome.astrobin.com/iotd. I think it will be hard to define the categories, as @Scott Badger commented in this thread. He promised to implement private contests instead, but I doubt, that some user started contest will ever have a reputation like IOTD. CS Fritz |
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Robert Winslow: I can accept flaws in my data. I am not selling it, I am not trying to profit, I am simply trying to capture the best image I can. Now, if I pay for an image, I expect the data to be clean and processable. Are the images nice, would it be fun to use them? For me the fun is in the collection, for example, I am responding to you at 5:00 AM my time, because I am outside with my equipment catch photons. |
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| I'm curious about this. Do people actually buy data sets instead of renting time on a remote system (with all that entails, risks and rewards)? And what woulld be the purpose of that, like? |
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Fritz: What is the reputation of an IOTD? I can't help but think that some of you are making themselves an unnecessary hard life by putting too much emphasis in getting appreciation coupled with the - in my humble opinion - wrong assumption that the only worthwhile form of appreciation is an IOTD. In my very first post I wrote "it's obviously not a replacement for the experience to collect and work with own data". This seems to be the general consensus. Everyone here seems to agree that it's an inspiring and rewarding experience to go out, experience the wonders of a starry night sky and to collect and process own data. So why not just do that and enjoy our hobby instead of belittling those who find their joy in processing data from remote sites? All of us here are in a privileged situation to have the time an money to experience this wonderful hobby while other parts of humanity are struggling with existential problems. I recommend cherishing the inherent value of our hobby and stop whining about IOTDs. Have fun and clear skies Wolfgang |
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andrea tasselli: Well you have to differentiate the different services: Remote hosting is something different, compared to renting others equipment or buy time on a professional site. For the second: How to you want to name it, if you give money to some professional service provider (doing that as a business) and this person uses his commercial gear to acquire the data for you and provides you the data? You pay money to someone who does a job for you. I call this "buying". |
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"if you give money to some professional service provider (doing that as a business) and this person uses his commercial gear to acquire the data for you and provides you the data? You pay money to someone who does a job for you. I call this "buying". I couln't agree more. A good part of AP, in fact the major part, is getting the equipment to work right, waiting for the right weather window, the struggle to put all this together to get good data. When you buy data, you outsource an enormous portion of the effort. It makes no sense that this should carry the same weight as data gathered through personal effort which is what happens in the current system. As for TP, TPN, IOTD, etc., it only matters as much as you personally care about it. I fear that the more we treat vastly different categories the same, the less meaning any of these badges have. Already to me, they hold vastly less meaning than 2 years ago. There is so much variation in equipment, weather, ability to buy data etc., that the concept of this as a "reward" is maningless. |
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Fritz: Wolfgang, in no way I was "whining about IOTDs". I only did express a personal opinion. By the way I am much less into getting awards than you might think: While I was happy enough to win one or two awards here on AB, the pictures that mean most to me have not caught to much attention by the community: My first AP ever (a blurry, defocussed planetary), a picture I took at some -15 degree (C) freezing to my bones, my first deepsky object, a galaxy, ... I am a field astrophotographer, I even do not have a backyard to make my pictures. I - like many others - know a lot about sleep deprivation, freezing, driving out of the city and setting up my gear just to watch clouds rolling in and more the like. Each data captured this way has its own little story and for me it is most rewarding to see the result of my efforts. Stopping from doing that would not help anybody struggling with existential problems. I prefer donating. Fritz, hardy and proud data collector |
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andrea tasselli: I bought data sets from telescope live. My motivation for this was already described in another thread but I can repeat it: I started AP end of September last year, so I'm a beginner - not in photography but in AP. Due to lack of clear skies and other commitments I had very few own imaging session until end of February. So in order to get started with PixInsight training I decided to subscribe to Telescope Live and start working on my image processing skills with some of their data sets, preferably but not exclusively targets of the southern hemisphere or targets which require long focal lengths I may never own myself. Thereby I kill several birds with one stone, working with data I most likely will never be able to collect on my own. In the meantime I enjoy participating in their monthly bundle contest where I learn a lot by comparing my own processing results with those of my fellow competitors. I assume I'm going to lose interest as soon as I have my own image acquisition process up and running (I'm fairly slow at that and made all the beginner mistakes one can make ...) but at the moment it offers a fair value for the quite small amount of money. Renting time on a remote system was no option for me, way too expensive for my purpose and I don't think I would have learned anything in addition from doing so. Clear skies Wolfgang |
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Fritz:Fritz: Fritz, I was not picking on you personally in case you had this impression. I was more referring to the general direction this thread is going in my opinion. I find myself actually in a similar situation without a backyard and having to carry my equipment up a small hill. I used any of the very few clear nights this winter I could get and temperatures below 0° C don't stop me either. I didn't experience -15°C so far though, but using a face mask and warm winter clothing was part of the test whether I'm going to sustain in this hobby. Indeed a significant part of the reward is that you have to go through some pain to get the result. Having this background I just don't understand why people then obsess about wether they get an IOTD or not. I just couldn't care less. Anyway good luck with your endeavours and clear skies Wolfgang |
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Ruediger: Hmm. There is a subtle difference here. If you buy datasets you have no say on how and when was acquired. If you rent a remote system you decide the framing, exposures and are subject to all the vagaries that accompany this hobby. IOW, you have complete control on the imaging session and you pay a fee for the privilege and exclusive ownership of the data (hopefully!). This is no intrinsically different than having your own remote system (even if it is in your own backyard!). As for paying you always do. Paying for the gear, paying for running the gear, paying for the gas to take you to a dark site and so on and so forth. |
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andrea tasselli:Ruediger: Purchasing the equipment or the gas for your car is just a matter of money and needs no know-how. To learn how to operate the gear is something different. In the case you describe, somebody else took care about colimation, alignment, balancing, selecting the proper gear which harmonize, make AF work, and million things more. I consider the gear part as the much bigger challenge compared to post processing. Have a look on the guys who carefully select and even develop their own gear. E.g. John Hayes with his Chili project and many more. There you see how much effort this part alone is. And how much know how and mainly experience you need. That is the important part, and not money. |
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Yes, it may be so but the distinction isn't relevant to the issue I was interested in. My contention is that buying a prepackaged dataset is rather different than paying for access to a remote system, last and not least the exclusive ownership of the data. Besides my limitation in seeing any meanigful use of it, well except getting you hands on high quality data (supposedly). As for being hands-on, how about building your own CCD camera. I did it, twice. I build my own controllers and autofocusers (well not there yet, more pressing issues elsewhere). What the heck, I once built an entire telescope (bought the lens though). What does it make me? A tinkerer for sure but a better APer? Not sure it does. |
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This has been a fantastic conversation, I am glad to see many believe that acquiring your own data is preferred. When I joined this site, I joined not because of rewards, but because I had a place where I could store, plat solve, as well as enjoy others efforts. However, winning an award would be nice, it does show that you are doing well as an hobbyist. I also know that my equipment, can not compete with many of the others setups, and I know i can not compete with professional services. I also get the desire to buy this data, one can not help to look at the images and wish yours one day could be as nice. I get the fact that because of all the different equipment, experience levels, you can not simply have categories for that all. However, these awards should be reserved for actual images provided by hobbyist with their own equipment. I also do not think it would be that hard or wrong to create 2 categories, data collectors, and data purchasers. |
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However, winning an award would be nice, it does show that you are doing well as an hobbyist. I think this is the main issue here - that receiving a badge of some kind is seen as a "win", and conversely, not receiving one is a loss. Of course, reading the actual IOTD manifesto would clearly tell you it is not a contest, so there is no win/loss involved. The problem arises because it is human nature to look at something given out in limited quantities as an object of desire, and hence the process involved as a contest. The other issue is that when IOTD was first created, the community was smaller, most people were probably hooking up DSLRs to camera lenses or small refractors and imaging from dark sites or their backyards. Now it is larger and more diverse, with equipment ranging from hundreds of thousands of dollars placed in dark sites, ability to buy data, etc., along with much smaller setups. Since the process, by design and intent, does not differentiate, it is seen as unfair when if people understood the intent, it would not be seen that way. |
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I am sure this is an argument that will continue through the ages here! There is a way for those, who are not in this hobby for awards or $, to sidestep the process altogether. One can remove your name in their profile from consideration for those awards, as I have done. I did this a while ago, because I found that there were subtle, yet real pressures felt by myself to process toward an aesthetic target that was not the reason I started doing this. Joining AstroBin was very secondary to my starting astrophotography... That does not mean that I do not appreciated the likes, bookmarks and comments that I get. I surely do, as I still feel that I am part of and greatly value the community. But now I feel that I can more freely process to my "ethic" and if someone has problems with that, they can directly comment on the issues they have and thereby have a face-to-face discussion. I find that most people are not out to try to change the way I do things. But I am willing to hear and change if I feel that the advice is valuable. And AstroBin will continue to give you the numbers of likes, bookmarks, etc. even if you opt out for awards. The only stuff you lose when opting out, is the decimal ranking overall and your name on the ranking lists. To me that seems counterproductive. My reasons why, is that for new users of AstroBin, those lists can lead them to names of individuals that have wonderful catalogues that could be an invaluable resource to their own development. An example, is @Gary Imm, who also opts out with rewards. But it is not a huge issue, since these catalogues can generally be found by other means. I can say that even in the several years of my participation, it became very clear that at times, the judging crew clearly seemed to favor certain types of images, processing styles, colors, contrasts, etc. While it may be true that Salvatore does a great job in picking the crew, I feel it is nearly impossible to isolate the process from the overall style of the day biases. Hence the pressures. Take for example something as simple as the impact that the Hubble Pallet has caused on astrophotography! But I do think things are getting better. As to what should be considered for IOTD, or whether bought data should be allowed, I wouldn't vote on this, even though I feel the reasons from each side. However, consider this: I have always had to slap myself upside the head when feeling that bought data was unfair. It is pretty clear that within this hobby and also those who participate on AstroBin, many are getting on in age. I have often felt that many such participants may only be able to participate because they no longer have the ability to collect their own data. It may be for age, health, location restrictions, etc. But these are real for many people. As someone who is now experiencing health issues that will keep me away from my gear, I may have no other choice if I want to keep my hand in the processing. So before we go eliminating whole classes of participants, think about how you would cast that first stone... Having said that, again, I find the competitive nature of the awards on this site odd. Not that a social group might present awards, but that the individuals within the social group would take them so damn seriously! Human nature. Alan |
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However, winning an award would be nice, it does show that you are doing well as an hobbyist. Personally I see it as a win but never a loss. I'm here for the image hosting and also to interact with the community. If I get a little tip of the cap then cool! I think you hit the crux of the issue. The IOTD system was designed during a different time for Astrobin, and as you pointed out times change. Therefore should the IOTD system change with the times? Right now if threads like this are any indication, it seems like it's not well equipped to deal with the nuances and diversity of astrophotography that are now prevalent on this website. |
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Thinking about this a little more I would like to say: * IOTD should show the art of the possible using as wide a variety of equipment, locations and budgets as possible * I strive to one day be able to capture and process images that are as good as those on IOTD * I always look at each IOTD, view what equipment and what location it was taken with/from and then ask myself "How close do I think I could get to that based on where I live and what I have?" I don't expect to compete with each image as the range of locations and budgets are huge; what gives me the greatest satisfaction is when my images from my sub-£4,000 setup in a suburban location start looking a bit like those on more expensive equipment from darker skies. Then I know that I'm starting to master the craft. The value I get from this site (which is, let's be honest, down to one man and some volunteers) is peer feedback, tips and the ability to see what others are achieving with equipment like mine. It's not really about IOTD. |
