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I've posted on my Astrobin page a single frame from a capture session of M106 2 nights ago. See by yourselves. https://astrob.in/tv03mn/B/ |
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| Do you know if the SpaceX Starlink satellites are also detectable by the ccd-sensor when they are not reflecting the sunlight down to earth? |
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Bernhard Suntinger: The image of Mr Rodolphe is the answer to your question Clear skies |
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That's pretty nasty, things can only get worse from here  |
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My Astro chums are confident that stacking software will be able to process these out, I hope they are right, otherwise we will all be sitting on a lot of useless expensive equipment. Carole |
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I agree that it's not nice but in the end you are totally fine when using median stacking methods. Like "median kappa sigma clipping" in DSS. Bright outlier pixels from planes or satellites have close to no effect on your final pictures then. The above method is my standard one. As I live close to a city with a huge airport, I sometimes have planes in every third frame. But no issues in the final image. But in the end you are right as you have less choices for processing your images. I also like the HDR stacking method in DSS. But with this you will find every plane and satellite in your final image. Not too pronounced if you use many lights, but it will be there. So, I'm not able to use it anymore. |
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| Well, it is true that a good rejection algorithm (like the mentioned 'kappa sigma' ) will erase trails. But keep in mind that SpaceX will launch about 12.000 satellites in its first stage and another 30.000 in the next one if they will not be stopped (at the moment there are about 450 in orbit). That means that nearly any single sub will contain these trails and i doubt that any algorithm (even the often used winsorized clipping in PI) is capable of rejecting these many trails. |
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| Am I correct to assume these will not show after these orbits are in earth's shadow? That is, after a certain time after dusk? |
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Here is a short blog that I posted a little while back that shows the success (thus far) of eliminating Starlink trails. http://skyandrockets.blogspot.com/2021/01/dealing-with-starlink-satellites.html |
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| Starlink has not been a problem for me. Rejection takes care of it. |
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I'm not happy about Starlink and I have a lot of concern about what sky will look like with tens of thousands of satellites criss-crossing every possible field of view. However, I'm pretty sure that stacking filters will take care of removing the trails. It may simply require a bit more data to get a clean stack, but that will depend on how many satellites cross the field while the shutter is open. I've seen very few folks mention the fact that Starlink might go a long way toward solving one of the key problems with remote astro-imaging. Putting an observatory out in the middle of a really dark, high quality site is often limited by the availability of an internet connection and the bandwidth available. With Starlink, it should be possible to set up solar powered imaging sites in the most remote regions of the planet without any other means of data link. Unfortunately, the way that Starlink solves that problem is a bit like the workings of a front illuminated CMOS array that has the detector looking out past all the interconnect circuitry in front of it! Micro-lens arrays go a long way toward solving the CMOS problem and stacking filters should do the same for Starlink. John |
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Here is a good YouTube video on the topic. Although from the perspective of professional researchers, I think it is still informative for amateurs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaR6v0p6pB4&t=206s |
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| Elon Musk talked about it on JRE in the episode today, said that it doesn't really affect astronomy, at least not the "professional" astronomers. The worst part about this is that before you know it everyone and their mother will have a satellite orbiting the earth including the big corporations. |
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There is a relativistic solution to this problem. 1st do not purchase any starlink product. 2nd awareness that this is not the way. If starlink does not have customers, the other corporations that try to put more starlink-type satellites will think about it. It is the only way we have to stop this sacrilege. It does not matter to me that starlink earns money, but that it does not stain the waters where I drink "I do not give you permission to dirty my part of heaven." |
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I have only been in this hobby for less than 12 months now but I am smitten and can't get enough, so I feel a little sad that Starlink can have such a dramatic effect on our hobby BUT I think it is very easy to lose sight of the fact that us in the west are very very privileged, just being able to afford astro gear says a lot about where we are compared to the rest of the world - the vast majority of people on this planet can barely afford to live to what we call a good standard. Starlink will help lift many people out of poverty. Education is key, key to that in the 3rd world is access to information and cheap internet will greatly aid that, so while I have Starlink satellites flying through my subs I do remember what it will give for many many millions of people. I think Elon has already put some thought into how he can minimise the future impact of his satellites after the first responses he got when they were launched, lets make sure we can strong arm him into sticking to those thoughts. CS skies or "Starlink free skies" Brad |
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| I think starlink will be great for the world and won't impact amateur astronomers one bit. |
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I am not trying to turn this into an argument, but I think many are concerned about StarLink because it is the first of many constellations. I think we could debate about the individual impact of a single 15,000+ constellation, and whether said company is trying to work with the researchers to avoid impact. That does not mean that Bezo's will, or OneWeb, etc. Space is a resource for the entire planet, yet the decisions to allow constellations are being done at a national level. A future with hundreds of thousands of satellites would not only be bad for astronomy, it would be bad for space travel, space debris, collisions, etc. And once we go down this path it is hard to reverse it. I dont think anyone is debating about whether "cheap" internet is a game changer, it is. But its fair to ask about how to accomplish that and have the international community give it some thought. |
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AstroGeek: Agreed @AstroGeek, this is the first of many to come and regulation and oversight should be key to these endeavors, problem is we hardly ever approach these types of projects at an agreed international level. It’s more we “can’t let that nation take the lead, we need to keep our market edge” so governments often fast track these projects with no “real” oversight leading to unforeseen impacts. This is the first of many to come I am afraid, however I collected 9 hrs of data last night, one sub had a satellite in it, little harm done for the time being by SpaceX’s Starlink. To be honest I get impacted more by the random satellite than I do by Starlink. Space debris, now that is a different beast entirely and is a growing problem as more nations become space tech capable, there is however still quite a lot of space out there, will we get ahead of this problem, no we won’t I am afraid and that is the free market in a nutshell. Anyway I agree, questions need to be asked and it needs to be at an international level. What are we going to do when a Chinese/Indian/UAE/Israeli etc SpaceX does something similar? |
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Byron Miller: Working for that company? Your post is nonsense - it IS already having an impact on both, amateurs and professional astronomers! |
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| The problem with these satellites is that if Starlink Internet proves to be good, reliable, worthy internet then you can expect competition, I mean take for example Starlink, it seems it can be global whereas in Comcast can only be US. It's a much bigger market I think and competition will be there if it takes off. |
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I've had "Starlinked" subs but I'll take those any day over geostationary sats that move enough to ruin the picture but not enough to get em all with most rejection algos. Technology gives and takes. Not only does stacking with the right rejection settings take care of this, shorter subs enabled by low read noise CMOS also drastically lowers its impact, and further improvements in that technology are on the horizon. I'll gladly sign up for Starlink if that means finally busting open the near-monopolies of ISPs and (especially) cable companies. Finally, artificial light and the spread of urbanisation is still by far the greater threat to our hobby for many of us, and so far even that has been a losing battle from where I'm standing. |
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| That's pretty awful... and are these going to be present on every latitude from now on? |
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are these going to be present on every latitude Well, if I remember well the orbits inclination spans from something like 20° to 55°. It means that it can pass at your zenith if you are at 55° of latitude, but it is still visible, although less high, if you live at superior latitudes. Of course once in their final orbit, Starlink satellites are a lot farther away from each other compared to the grouping we can see few days after a launch. But still, with the number of satellites in the constellation and considering that they will be at 3 different orbit altitude, we can say the sky will be covered with these. And that's without considering the other constellations from starlink competitors... |
