Moravian C 1X or C3 owners

0.00 Joe #... · view views
Hello, I am new to the group, first post. I have a question for all you Moravian owners, especially C1X 26000 and C3 26000 owners. Why did you choose Moravian over the likes of QHY or ZWO?? I'm looking for an IMX 571 chip, osc. QHY and ZWO seem to be the main players in astronomy cameras. Moravian cost a lot more too. Just curious. Thank you. Joe Like

4.40 Torben van Hees #... · view views · 1 like
I can tell you why I chose QHY despite getting great pre-sales service by Moravian and believing in their superior build quality and the nice mechanical shutter of the C3: First, With OAG+Filterwheel the Moravian cameras consume 62.5mm backfocus. This rules them out for 2 of my 3 image trains. Secondly, my QHY vendor has provided great service so far and warranty claims with QHY went very smoothly (I‘ld prefer working equipment, of course). Third, price: Even in Europe, the Moravian mono train for the C1x26000 costs twice as much as the QHY. While the IMX455 is offered with a consumer sensor, the IMX571 is not, adding considerable expense. I‘m willing to pay a substantial premium for better quality, but the difference meant I could get a second QHY mono camera as spare and still have money left. I, too, would love to hear from anyone having experience with both. Like

4.40

Torben van Hees

#...

· 1 like

I can tell you why I chose QHY despite getting great pre-sales service by Moravian and believing in their superior build quality and the nice mechanical shutter of the C3: First, With OAG+Filterwheel the Moravian cameras consume 62.5mm backfocus. This rules them out for 2 of my 3 image trains. Secondly, my QHY vendor has provided great service so far and warranty claims with QHY went very smoothly (I‘ld prefer working equipment, of course). Third, price: Even in Europe, the Moravian mono train for the C1x26000 costs twice as much as the QHY. While the IMX455 is offered with a consumer sensor, the IMX571 is not, adding considerable expense. I‘m willing to pay a substantial premium for better quality, but the difference meant I could get a second QHY mono camera as spare and still have money left.

I, too, would love to hear from anyone having experience with both.

3.97 matthew.maclean #... · view views · 1 like
This Cloudy Nights discussion thread is possibly useful: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/792880-camera-helpmoravian-c3-26000/ Like

0.00 Joe #... · view views · 1 like
Torben, Thank you for your reply. I am sold on Moravian, the people I have talked to, no one has spoke of a problem. I am not saying there is not a problem somewhere, I have not come across one yet. Everyone says they just work. I am going to get a one shot color, so no filter wheel for me. Joe Like

0.00 Joe #... · view views
Mathew, I was the one who started the post. I was trying to find anyone to talk about their Moravian. Still am. Thank you, Joe Like

3.97 matthew.maclean #... · view views · 2 likes
Joe: Mathew, I was the one who started the post. I was trying to find anyone to talk about their Moravian. Still am. Thank you, Joe hi @Joe , Yes, I notice that now. I have been helping out with Salvatore's new equipment database, so I can say that Moravian cameras are not very common on Astrobin. There are only about two hundred Moravian users total and only one entry of a C3-26000 Color that I noticed. That is probably why you haven't gotten much response on this forum - although I'm not a Moravian user, it's always nice to get some kind of response, so I figured I would tell you what I could find (I've spent a lot of time looking at equipment lately...). If you are still deciding, I saw this recent post on SharpCap's forum: https://forums.sharpcap.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4313 That poster, Martin Myslivec, has a very nice website (http://hvbo.cz/) and, if he is testing out Moravian's cameras for them, he certainly must be very knowledgeable about them. The website is Czech, but browser translation is incredible these days if you wanted to contact him. I did want to point out that the response on the CloudyNights forum about using an industrial version of the IMX571 sensor seems correct, but that is for the "PRO" version of those cameras, which seem to cost about 700Euro/$800 more than the regular version does. According to Moravian's site (https://www.gxccd.com/art?id=653&cat=22&lang=409), the regular version uses the commercial IMX571 that should be the same as ZWO and others are probably using. I don't know if the "Industrial-grade" is important to you or not. I personally am an Altair Astro user. I have had their IMX571 OSC camera (called 26C) for about a year and love it so far. I did have a USB problem in the previous camera I owned and Altair did replace it in about two weeks, so I have had a generally good experience even when something goes wrong. Good, localized warranty support is important to consider for the occasion someone does have a problem - I go through the local US distributor (Land, Sea, and Sky/Houston, TX) who handle all the import/export which makes it easy. If you are still shopping, these are some IMX571 cameras that are available besides the Moravian: Altair Astro 26C QHY 268C ZWO 2600MC Pro Orion G26 MallinCam DS26c Omegon veTEC 571 C Touptek/RisingCam ATR3 26000 KPA Quality-control is pretty good these days I think, so most of us are probably quite happy with whatever brand we are using. Like

3.97

matthew.maclean

#...

· 2 likes

Joe:
Mathew, I was the one who started the post. I was trying to find anyone to talk about their Moravian. Still am. Thank you, Joe

hi @Joe ,

Yes, I notice that now. I have been helping out with Salvatore's new equipment database, so I can say that Moravian cameras are not very common on Astrobin. There are only about two hundred Moravian users total and only one entry of a C3-26000 Color that I noticed. That is probably why you haven't gotten much response on this forum - although I'm not a Moravian user, it's always nice to get some kind of response, so I figured I would tell you what I could find (I've spent a lot of time looking at equipment lately...).

If you are still deciding, I saw this recent post on SharpCap's forum: https://forums.sharpcap.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4313
That poster, Martin Myslivec, has a very nice website (http://hvbo.cz/) and, if he is testing out Moravian's cameras for them, he certainly must be very knowledgeable about them. The website is Czech, but browser translation is incredible these days if you wanted to contact him.

I did want to point out that the response on the CloudyNights forum about using an industrial version of the IMX571 sensor seems correct, but that is for the "PRO" version of those cameras, which seem to cost about 700Euro/$800 more than the regular version does. According to Moravian's site (https://www.gxccd.com/art?id=653&cat=22&lang=409), the regular version uses the commercial IMX571 that should be the same as ZWO and others are probably using. I don't know if the "Industrial-grade" is important to you or not.

I personally am an Altair Astro user. I have had their IMX571 OSC camera (called 26C) for about a year and love it so far. I did have a USB problem in the previous camera I owned and Altair did replace it in about two weeks, so I have had a generally good experience even when something goes wrong. Good, localized warranty support is important to consider for the occasion someone does have a problem - I go through the local US distributor (Land, Sea, and Sky/Houston, TX) who handle all the import/export which makes it easy. If you are still shopping, these are some IMX571 cameras that are available besides the Moravian:
Altair Astro 26C
QHY 268C
ZWO 2600MC Pro
Orion G26
MallinCam DS26c
Omegon veTEC 571 C
Touptek/RisingCam ATR3 26000 KPA
Quality-control is pretty good these days I think, so most of us are probably quite happy with whatever brand we are using.

0.00 Joe #... · view views · 2 likes
Mathew, You are a wealth of knowledge. I have been looking for two weeks now and you are the 5th person that has replied and knows something. There is a lot of information in the paragraphs above. Thank you so much. I do plan to go through a dealer in the US, Woodland Hills Camera and Telescope in California, Telescopes.Net. A guy named Peter has been helping me there. Of the 4 other owners, I think 1 works for Moravian, Pavel, the others, 1 from Spain, 1 from Italy, and 1 from Croatia. This is what I am told from the 3 private owners in Europe, they all say the camera is built like a tank and just works, no problems. 2 CCD owmers had their cameras for 6 - 10 years and used constantly. The other is a CMOS owner and the camera works with a variety of software no problems. One even compared their camera to a SBIG camera of old, I still have my ST9E and filter wheel, 20 years now. This is the exact reason I am looking at Moravian. I want a camera I can ride of to the sunset with, I am 60 years old. I will check out Martin Myslivec and the Sharpcap link. As for the industrial chip, I am still thinking about that. From what I have heard, all the chips are made on one board, all are tested, some test higher and therefor become industrial chips. How they test higher I do not know. What happens to the regular chip after 300 hours, in one year or not, I do not know. Is that worth $700 - $800 not sure. Is Moravian worth $800 - $1000 more than a ZWO or QHY, the dominate brands in the US, I think so - based on user's stories. I do appreciate all the help I can get, again Mathew, thank you very much, Joe Like

0.00

Joe

#...

· 2 likes

Mathew, You are a wealth of knowledge. I have been looking for two weeks now and you are the 5th person that has replied and knows something.   There is a lot of information in the paragraphs above. Thank you so much.

I do plan to go through a dealer in the US, Woodland Hills Camera and Telescope in California, Telescopes.Net.    A guy named Peter has been helping me there.

Of the 4 other owners, I think 1 works for Moravian, Pavel, the others, 1 from Spain, 1 from Italy, and 1 from Croatia.    This is what I am told from the 3 private owners in Europe, they all say the camera is built like a tank and just works, no problems. 2 CCD owmers had their cameras for 6 - 10 years and used constantly. The other is a CMOS owner and the camera works with a variety of software no problems. One even compared their camera to a SBIG camera of old, I still have my ST9E and filter wheel, 20 years now.    This is the exact reason I am looking at Moravian.   I want a camera I can ride of to the sunset with, I am 60 years old.

I will check out Martin Myslivec and the Sharpcap link.   As for the industrial chip, I am still thinking about that.   From what I have heard, all the chips are made on one board, all are tested, some test higher and therefor become industrial chips.   How they test higher I do not know. What happens to the regular chip after 300 hours, in one year or not, I do not know. Is that worth $700 - $800 not sure.   Is Moravian worth $800 - $1000 more than a ZWO or QHY, the dominate brands in the US, I think so - based on user's stories.

I do appreciate all the help I can get, again Mathew, thank you very much,    Joe

5.21 Bill McLaughlin #... · view views
Joe From what I have heard, all the chips are made on one board...... I recall hearing somewhere that the housing on the industrial versions are ceramic as opposed to plastic but I cannot find that reference to verify that. It is difficult to find material on the distinction between consumer and industrial versions of the Sony CMOS sensors but I did find this on the QHY page with regard to the Sony 455 and I assume the same would apply to the 571: So why all the fuss? The QHY600M series uses the Industrial 'K' Grade version of the Sony IMX455 as opposed to the 'C' Commercial Grade but on paper, both options seem to work the same. Well, maybe not.... A general explanation of the benefits to the K versus C is perhaps best highlighted by the company Framos. Framos is company that for nearly 40 years has offered sensor solutions as both a supplier and consultancy. Of particular relevance is their close working relationship with Sony. On the subject of Industrial and Commercial Grade sensors, Framos comment as follows (taken from https://www.framos.com/en/products/sensors/consumer-sensors/ ) Similar to area scan sensors, images produced by consumer grade sensors, provide a fast, high-resolution capture of the entire field of view. The main difference between them and industrial grade ones is that consumer sensors have a shorter life span, a shorter mean time before failure (MTBF) and, as a result, may cost much less than an equivalent industrial grade sensor. If you have a product that needs to be guaranteed for a long time, have a consistent image between each vision product, or if you need it to last for several years versus just one year you will want to consider an industrial area sensor instead. If you are purchasing hundreds of thousands of sensors per year and you have satisfied the other requirements, then consumer sensors may be the right choice for your application So, we can see that if you want to ensure longevity and consistant performance, an industrial sensor has at least this advantage, but is that all? No! Industrial sensors have a superior 'package' to commercial versions. The Land Grid Array package (LGA) is basically the sensor housing. With industrial sensors this is made of different materials that minimise thermo mechanical stress. This is significant as CMOS sensors typically operate at extremes, running hot in general use to which cooling then requires them to operate in extreme sub zero conditions. The improved materials of the LGA package allow more consistant operation over a wide temperature range which is partly why there is improved longevity with Industrial sensors. In addition, an Industrial sensor represents the 'cream' of the crop in a production sense, having less pixel defects, in much the same way that there were differences with Grade 1 and 2 CCD sensors in the past. Defects can be dealt with through calibration but as with the old CCD generation, as time passes, defects do not reduce! Therefore, by investing in a 'K' grade sensor, you can expect your camera sensor to have a longer lifespan, be consistant and offer improved performance compared to the C grade. When combined with the other features of the QHY600M, the premium is justified as would be expected for a higher specification camera. For my part, I decided to buy the Moravian IMX 571 based camera in the industrial version (placed the order today). No point taking any chances. The ZWO are great (and I have one as well) but there are three issues for me: 1) ZWO does not offer industrial sensors 2) This camera will be at a remote site and only Moravian offers a shutter. 3) As far as i know only Moravian offers enhanced cooling and at my site cooling can be a real headache in the summer, even allowing for the lower thermal noise of CMOS. Edited ... Like

5.21

Bill McLaughlin

#...

Joe
From what I have heard, all the chips are made on one board......

I recall hearing somewhere that the housing on the industrial versions are ceramic as opposed to plastic but I cannot find that reference to verify that.

It is difficult to find material on the distinction between consumer and industrial versions of the Sony CMOS sensors but I did find this on the QHY page with regard to the Sony 455 and I assume the same would apply to the 571:

So why all the fuss? The QHY600M series uses the Industrial 'K' Grade version of the Sony IMX455 as opposed to the 'C' Commercial Grade but on paper, both options seem to work the same. Well, maybe not....

A general explanation of the benefits to the K versus C is perhaps best highlighted by the company Framos. Framos is company that for nearly 40 years has offered sensor solutions as both a supplier and consultancy. Of particular relevance is their close working relationship with Sony. On the subject of Industrial and Commercial Grade sensors, Framos comment as follows (taken from https://www.framos.com/en/products/sensors/consumer-sensors/ )

Similar to area scan sensors, images produced by consumer grade sensors, provide a fast, high-resolution capture of the entire field of view. The main difference between them and industrial grade ones is that consumer sensors have a shorter life span, a shorter mean time before failure (MTBF) and, as a result, may cost much less than an equivalent industrial grade sensor.

If you have a product that needs to be guaranteed for a long time, have a consistent image between each vision product, or if you need it to last for several years versus just one year you will want to consider an industrial area sensor instead. If you are purchasing hundreds of thousands of sensors per year and you have satisfied the other requirements, then consumer sensors may be the right choice for your application

So, we can see that if you want to ensure longevity and consistant performance, an industrial sensor has at least this advantage, but is that all? No!

Industrial sensors have a superior 'package' to commercial versions. The Land Grid Array package (LGA) is basically the sensor housing. With industrial sensors this is made of different materials that minimise thermo mechanical stress. This is significant as CMOS sensors typically operate at extremes, running hot in general use to which cooling then requires them to operate in extreme sub zero conditions. The improved materials of the LGA package allow more consistant operation over a wide temperature range which is partly why there is improved longevity with Industrial sensors.

In addition, an Industrial sensor represents the 'cream' of the crop in a production sense, having less pixel defects, in much the same way that there were differences with Grade 1 and 2 CCD sensors in the past. Defects can be dealt with through calibration but as with the old CCD generation, as time passes, defects do not reduce!

Therefore, by investing in a 'K' grade sensor, you can expect your camera sensor to have a longer lifespan, be consistant and offer improved performance compared to the C grade. When combined with the other features of the QHY600M, the premium is justified as would be expected for a higher specification camera.

For my part, I decided to buy the Moravian IMX 571 based camera in the industrial version (placed the order today). No point taking any chances. The ZWO are great (and I have one as well) but there are three issues for me:

1) ZWO does not offer industrial sensors
2) This camera will be at a remote site and only Moravian offers a shutter.
3) As far as i know only Moravian offers enhanced cooling and at my site cooling can be a real headache in the summer, even allowing for the lower thermal noise of CMOS.

Edited ...

5.21 Bill McLaughlin #... · view views
UPDATE: I did order my Moravian (the smaller IMX571 version) about three weeks ago from Tolga and just heard today that it is ready to ship (3 weeks instead of the 6 weeks estimate). Kinda surprising.... Like

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