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Bob Lockwood: Bob, I agree that the FLI cameras are superb and I happen to have two FLI-ML16803s on the shelf in my shop. I even started with that camera on this scope. However, there were some solid reasons to go with the IMX455 sensor with this scope in Chile. I've given a number of talks on this subject. One is here: https://www.optics.arizona.edu/news-events/events/opti617-public-talk-john-hayes-optics-adventures-during-pandemic-engineering-remo. You can get a brief intro to the subject in this write up here: https://www.optics.arizona.edu/news-events/events/opti617-public-talk-john-hayes-optics-adventures-during-pandemic-engineering-remo. John |
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I have some experience with the QHY600M (early bird edition). Two of them were put into service several years ago. The QHY camera USB3 connection first negotiates the connection with USB2 signaling. This presents random problems with some USB3 hubs and amplified extension cables. By the way, the Tripp Lite USB3 active extension cable seems to be the "least worst." I'd reconnect the USB3 camera cable to a USB2 port on the PC. Keeping the signaling USB2 may do the trick. You will still be subject to the 5 m length limitation without an active repeater or powered hub in the middle. The QHY thermal controllers have had issues which can cause a failure in the image capture circuitry. I returned one camera to QHY for exactly that reason. It does sound to me like the fault is likely in the camera which will require a factory return. Last May I returned a QHY128 to the factory for repair. I'm still waiting for a diagnosis and repair / replacement. I did get a note a week or two ago indicating that they were starting to work on it..... The QHY600 is an excellent camera but for a remote site where everything has to work all the time I'd choose something else. I have three OTAs at Sierra Remote. All three use Moravian C3-61000EC PRO cameras which have performed perfectly every night. And they do image every night. John, I use a Tripp Lite USB3 active 5m cable to connect this camera directly to the PC. I've swapped cables and I'm convinced that this isn't a cable problem. I'm now on the 3rd night since this problem first appeared and I booted the system tonight to see how it would behave. Bam... it looks like it's working again! This is very strange. For a year, it worked without a glitch and now it's a crap shoot. Intermittent is extremely frustrating and I'm losing trust in this camera! I was hoping for a simple fix. Maybe QHY will have something but I'm still waiting on an answer. John |
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Michael & Jon Norman: Is not a Voyager problem but a QHY driver problem .. be sure to use the latest beta from their website. Usually they fix driver so many times during the year. Restarting the PC daily base help if you have a 24H pc observatory running with this camera. All the best Leonardo |
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Hi John, Looking at your images, it looks like the 'wonky' one is just receiving only a tiny fraction of the light that it should get. And you've checked already all settings on gain, offset, exposure, etc and verified any potential filter blockage. So yes, a camera and/or software fault seems like a likely explanation. Just to drop in a completely different angle though. If I'm not mistaken, you're using on-axis guiding, isn't it? So you will have a dichroic beam splitter in your light pathway. How critical is such a splitter for a slight mis-alignment? Or is there any chance that the filter got damaged? Have you checked the ONAG filter? If there is a little mechanical play in it, could that explain that sometimes the light beam is just not reflected (enough) into the camera? If it is mechanical, it would explain why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, or start working again when you physically touch the system by pulling out cables. If it is an issue with the ONAG, it might also explain why you already went through 2 Horizon cameras for guiding in one year. Regardless make/build quality/grade of cameras/sensors, three broken cameras in one year sounds quite exceptional. Perhaps it makes no sense what I'm saying here, I have no experience with ONAG at all. Just a thought. Good luck troubleshooting the issue. Willem Jan. |
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John Hayes:Bob Lockwood: Hi John, Thanks for the links. I had planned to ask you what you thought about the QHY600, but you just answered my question. I once asked someone you may know, he uses to make filters and holds a Ph.D. in near-infrared spectroscopy, about what he thought about QHY cameras, granted this was a long time ago and I'm sure there much better now. He said when they fail to just throw them away rather than trying to fix then. I would very much like to try the IMX455, but not yet. Not sure if you have heard, but FLI is going introduce their new BioLine cameras sometime next year and some of the chips will be the IMX571, IMX492 and the IMX455. That will be the day I may switch to CMOS, will see, not sure yet if I want to go with a smaller chip then the 16803 even if it does have better SNR. Anyway, hope you get the issue fixed soon, after all, you're imaging from one of, if not the best places there is. I know someone that helped Astro-Physic setup their equipment at the Las Campanas Observatory in Chile. Bob |
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Bob Lockwood:John Hayes:Bob Lockwood: Bob, I actually think that in spite of this problem, the QHY600M-PH is a very good camera. It is a very worthy replacement to the FLI-ML16803 and it costs a little less than half of what I paid for my last FLI camera. Up until now, it has been very reliable so I hope that I can identify what is going on with it. I still haven't ruled out a fault with the observatory line voltage regulator or something else in my system that might be messing up the supply voltage to the camera. This is a problem with a remote observatory. It's a LOT harder to trouble shoot things when things go wrong. That's why I posed this problem as a question. John |
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Now I'm really puzzled. The camera has worked just fine for the last two nights. If it weren't for the fact that the problem went away on the first night after we swapped cables, I would conclude that the camera window had frosted over. This camera might be old enough to require a new desiccant pellet and if the humidity were sufficiently high, frost could have formed. I don't know. I didn't mention that when I was first having the problem, I slewed over to the moon and took a few images, which were sharp enough to rule out frost. If it keeps working, I'm ok with that but this problem will be in the back of my mind going forward. Weird. John |
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John Hayes: The camera has no desiccant pellets inside of the chamber, just the desiccant tube you thread into the side of the camera body. If that isn't installed, I would get it installed. If it is instated, I would have the local team dump and fill the tube. |
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John HayesNow I'm really puzzled. The camera has worked just fine for the last two nights. If it weren't for the fact that the problem went away on the first night after we swapped cables, I would conclude that the camera window had frosted over. This camera might be old enough to require a new desiccant pellet and if the humidity were sufficiently high, frost could have formed. I don't know. I didn't mention that when I was first having the problem, I slewed over to the moon and took a few images, which were sharp enough to rule out frost. If it keeps working, I'm ok with that but this problem will be in the back of my mind going forward. Weird. |
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john, Also, I'm don't know about the imaging software you are using but with NINA, the chamber -Relative Humidity- is constantly displayed. I try to keep mine low, under 50%. The desiccant has recently been charged and its at 24% despite it being 80% outside. --Rouz |
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The scope has been in Chile for a year and that camera is roughly 1.5 years old. The chamber has never been "dried out" so that's a good suggestion. Still, there's not enough evidence to suggests that frost was the problem. John |
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Hi John Clicking on the two links you show in your response to Bob, I get "page not found" Is there a new link? Scott |
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Scott Lockwood: @Scott Lockwood I found a talk with the same title via YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te4UVYi6n44&ab_channel=UAOSC |
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John Hayes: *It does look too even to be frost which usually starts at the center of the window being furthest away from the heated edges of the glass. Rouz |
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Rouz Astro: Agreed. |
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Scott Lockwood: DOH! Yeah, those link were screwed up and I should have tried them first. I see that he UA talk got moved to the address that David found. The other link was suppose to take you to this post: https://www.astrobin.com/txk760/F/. I'm really sorry for the error! I'll try to be more careful the next time... John |
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Michael & Jon Norman: I get this same issue with the 64 bit EZCap client. The 32 bit one works just fine for me. |
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I had a different problem with my QHY600PH-M (random horizontal banding noise, like this guy: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/700917-qhy168c-randomized-horizontal-banding/) and it too had to be sent back for repairs (from Chile as well...). I have a suspicion that the data during the USB transfer has neither error detection nor error correction, making me question the quality of the data and the applicability for remotely controlled telescopes that must operate reliably. I'm getting a replacement now and I pray to god that similar errors do not occur again |
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I had a different problem with my QHY600PH-M (random horizontal banding noise, like this guy: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/700917-qhy168c-randomized-horizontal-banding/) and it too had to be sent back for repairs (from Chile as well...). I have a suspicion that the data during the USB transfer has neither error detection nor error correction, making me question the quality of the data and the applicability for remotely controlled telescopes that must operate reliably. I'm getting a replacement now and I pray to god that similar errors do not occur again Your problem doesn’t look like the USB transmission errors that I’ve seen. Where did you get the camera? QHY supplies both a power supply and the power supply cable with the camera and you say that you got neither. Did you put a DVM on the supply to measure the supply voltages? Was it a switching supply? Did you ever try the camera with the proper supply and cable? It sounds like it ran fine when you used a battery for the power supply, which makes it sound like a potential supply issue. I have two QHY600M-ph cameras and neither has shown the kind of problem that you experienced. As I’ve said, the camera on my scope in Chile has worked flawlessly for about a year before this problem popped up. Lately, it has been working just fine, which has me wondering what the heck happened. It too could be related to a power problem. I’m going to take some spare power supplies with me when I head back down there in another month or so. John |
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John Hayes: John, After reading people pondering on power supply issues, I think about the power grid quality in general. I admit, I don't know about the conditions down there in Chile and how the hosting company deals with power supply for your scope. I am just projecting some personal experience from the Caribbean onto it: I would use a good and strong line filter to protect the equipment from misbehaviour or damage. I know you thoroughly prepared for this endavour and if that point is checked already, just dismiss my comment on it. Björn |
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According to the techs at Sierra Remote ( about 60 piers) the single most common failure mode are the switching power supplies that are included with cameras, filter wheels and the like. These inexpensive supplies were never designed for the rigors of exposure to the elements. I have a suggestion for remote setups. Don't use them. At SRO my three OTAs each have a Pegasus Ultimate V2 box for power distribution. The power supply for each Pegasus box is an Astron 25 or 30 amp rack mounted switching power supply. Linear would be better but more expensive. The Astron switchers are fine - and they have a voltage adjustment pot so that the voltage at the OTA can be adjusted to just under 13 vdc. Other similar supplies (built for radios) supply too much voltage (as high as 14.5 vdc) and are not adjustable. I've never had a power supply problem - ever. This is an inexpensive and highly reliable solution for remote setups. Just my .02 |
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John Hayes: Yeah, that was what it was installed with (the forum post is not by me). Also tried a different USB cable and powered hub (without one, the camera would disconnect randomly). Björn: Me too, but it's difficult to judge/measure this from here. The site self-supplies with solar power (DeepSkyChile). I don't understand however why a power issue would affect the data integrity (unless it affects the sensor). That seems like more of a lack of a proper protocol/firmware/software issue. |
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Björn: The observatory mostly runs from LiOn batteries at night but if the batteries get depleted it's possible for a diesel generator to kick in. I don't know how things are wired but my feeling is that the line current is actually pretty clean. Remember that they have millions of dollars worth of equipment running there each night and no one wants their gear damaged by voltage spikes. My scope runs through a UPS to a step down transformer. I've had one Power Werx power supply blow out but my other supplies have been fine. I didn't equip the system to be able to remotely report power supply health so it's hard to say if the supplies are a part of the problem. I never had a supply fail on my C14 system in New Mexico--over many years, so I didn't consider it to be significant risk. John |
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Update on my situation: Because we experienced simultaneous telescope mount and camera disconnection failures recently, the reason may not lie with the camera after all, but with the motherboard of the PC. The system is using an ASUS TUF GAMING B550M-PLUS WIFI II, which many people seem to be having USB connectivity and possibly power surge problems with, which may explain the irregular connectivity problems and data corruption: https://www.pcmag.com/news/amd-locates-root-cause-of-usb-issues-on-b550-x570-motherboards I had similar problems with my home computer, which coincidentally uses the similar ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING, after updating the BIOS there to the latest version, my external microphone now works again. We hope this will also apply to the camera - we will continue to test during the next nights If any of you have similar problems, maybe check whether you have one of these motherboards |
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John Hayes: John, I'm having similar problems with a new QHY600M-SBFL Mono (also at a remote site). Did you get this resolved? And if so, how? Peter |