18.84
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Hello all, To add my two cents: I intensivly worked with APT and I am using NINA now, evaluated SGP and Voyager too. First I want to point out that I really do appreciate APT and NINA. Both are excellent tools. Also the last two ones. I want to make clear: use what ever helps you to achieve your goal. These are tools, and not the aim of the game. 😉 Second, why I have discarded the last two solutions: SGP is offering nothing what the others do for a smaller price. Voyager had issues with the hardware and I had some trouble with the GUI, I considered it to be very confusing. Now coming to APT and NINA. APT is a reliable work horse, but it was lacking of a reliable auto focus at that point of time and that was a show stopper when working remote or unattended. What was also very painful: the ASCOM observing conditions hub was not supported. also most of the devices are addressed via native protocol instead of ASCOM driver. A big plus: INDIGO support. NINA has a great AF function. This was the main reason. But what now has been developed in the nightly with advanced sequencer is very useful. You can work with loops, triggers, and parallel instruction blocks. These are very powerful. Also a big plus is the high development speed in the nightly build branch (which I use exclusivly). Negative: no INDIGO support and Discord is also depreciated by me. But you can use Bitbucket to communicate in case of problems or improvements. My conclusion: APT is definitely a wonderful tool, but lacks for some critical features which are mandatory for remote or unattended use. Never the less I will watch it’s development closely and it will be always on my disk. NINA is improving in a dramatic speed and is also very reliable. Especially the advanced sequencer with its growing instruction set is great. also one feature which is one of my top scorer: You can modify a running plan on the fly without interruption! Which makes it possible to quickly react on changed conditions or failed subs. This is an amazing feature, which I adore! If NINA would have also INDIGO support then I would be perfectly happy 😃. These were my top arguments for the mentioned tools. Cheers Rüdiger |
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Frédéric Auchère:Frédéric Auchère: Thanks. I checked that and the limits are disabled in EQMOD. Instead of "APT dithering", I recently tried the "APT pulse dithering"option. With that option, the mount does not flip anymore when passing the meridian. I have the impression that "APT pulse dithering" simply sends, well, pulses, while "APT dithering" sends pointing requests, which make the mount flip if it is counterweight up (the mount flips at the first dither if the acquisition is started counterweight up). So I thought using "APT pulse dithering" would solve my problem, but it does not let me specify a settle duration after the pulse command. So I'm not quite satisfied with that either. I did not yet find a good solution for unattended dithering with no guiding. |
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I tried NINA, liked the framing options but decided to stop using it since it has limited features with regard to focusing + it had connection issues with my ZWO 1600 mm. After trying SGP (which is a good program but didn't like the price) I started using APT and I like it very much. This program reminded me the most to Backyard EOS which I used previously with a DSLR. The live view option, focusing tools and such are really easy to use. APT has quite basic planning features, but for me less is more. And it has cool sounds when you attach or detach gear :-) Cheers |
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I tried NINA, liked the framing options but decided to stop using it since it has limited features with regard to focusing + it had connection issues with my ZWO 1600 mm. Hi @Douwe79 , this must be a long time ago, since NINA has plenty to offer for AF, whereas APT is just working on ti to get the POC into a the official release. |
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Ruediger: Hi Ruediger, I don’t AF yet, I still MF. I really liked the MF options in APT. |
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18.84
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Ruediger: Ah, ok! Yes, for MF APT has better support. That's true.  |
1.20
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I'm using both. I keep updating both to the latest and I also use Sharpcap before I jump into either APT or NINA. I just do Sharpcap, because I do a histogram "best settings" with the brain that gives me a ballpark on what exposures and settings I should be using for , after it does a measurement of the sky darkness. I was ONLY using APT up to like April, and as far as DSLRs, I rather use APT for those, while with dedicated CMOS cameras , I think NINA has a better support. |
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Since you guys have experience with various software packages, maybe you can help me out. I’m working on a new control system for a couple of scopes. One system will use astigmatic focusing so I have no need for V-curve focusing on that scope. The other system will use V-curve focusing. Here’s a list of stuff that I’d like to address going forward: What code will support: 1) Using full-frame IFI SkyGuard for guiding and focusing? 2) Status monitoring with full error recovery with conditional recovery options to handle cloud and roof interruptions? 3) Easy to configure, reliable plate solving and mount control to dead center the desired coordinates? 3) Multi-object sequencing? 4) Easy access to catalog objects that doesn’t require importing data from websites? 5) An object planner/scheduler similar to ACP for fully automated operation? 6) Support for pre-exposure flash for RBI mitigation? 7) Support for camera soft start and shut down including user selectable cool-down and warm-up options? 8. Support to power down a list of IP controlled equipment? 9) Windowed operation of a large CMOS imaging sensor that allows defining the size and position of the window and saving those coordinates across multiple sessions? 10) Start up/shut down options that include starting/stopping relative to nautical (or astronomical) twilight? 11) Bug free, reliable operation with an intuitive, easy to understand interface! Some of this stuff is easy and a few are hard but this is where the rubber meets my road. What package best meets these requirements? John |
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Hi John, tested a lot of SW but none of them came even close to meet all your requirements. I agree to all of your requirements and I would also pay a decent amount of money for such a SW, but I doubt that there is such on the free market. The common ones NINA, Voyager, SGP, APT and other well known serve some of the aspects but not all. Especially point 11 is quite mutually exclusive to the other points before. But do me a favor: if you found such a software, please let us know. We all want it 😎😎 Cheers Rüdiger |
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John Hayes: Hi @John Hayes To add some more facts, what e.g. NINA can do (only because I have spent some time with it. This means NOT that others cannot do that too). 1. no 2. Staus Monitoring yes, partial event handling via trigger and safety monitor. No recovery. 3. yes via ASTAP. With G18 catalogues very precise, reliable and he’ll fast for long FL. Within a few arcsec. 4. yes, onboard catalogue 5. yes, smart timer even position triggers and other events e.g. dawn and many more 6. no 7. yes 8. primarily a matter of the target device. But command line resp. batch can be executed so it should be no problem. 9. no 10. yes 11. only few bugs but quickly fixed. Intuitive is rather subjective. But more sorted than e.g. voyager. Comparing you requirements I think voyager my also come close to them, but it conflicts with #11 UI from my point of view. CS Rüdiger |
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Ruediger:John Hayes: Thanks for that @Rudiger!! That is really helpful and it sounds like NINA comes close. Item 11 is probably the hardest to satisfy but for now, item #1 is a deal killer. Maybe I'll have to give up on that idea but for now I want to try to make it happen. Item 9 is super easy and I'm surprised that so few packages support that capability. It is something that will become more important to support really large sensor arrays running in remote observatories. John |
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John Hayes: Well, I am not so much surprised, since only a small group does need it and therefore are only few requests in this direction. Subraming is used by most people only for focusing in interactive mode, but not for data acquisition. 1. FF sensors are still used less often since it needs expansive telescopes to take advantage of and hence there are less. Also they are still expensive. 2. many are happy to use large FOV since you can compensate inaccurate positioning. The target is on the sensor anyway 😋 subframing requires a very precise mount. 3. makes things more complex when stacking. You need the exact matching geometry for flats and darks. This is really an issue and can drive you crazy. NINA and APT neglect subframing even in interactive use and both show issues to fixed. I admit: Many times I was also longing for such a feature too. E. g. for PNs when shooting in Bin 1. Why the heck I have to take GBs of data in a 9kx6k resolution for a target which is only 100x100 px. wide 😤 CS Rüdiger Update: I have placed a feature request in NINA’s Bitbucket. |
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22.40
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My latest post about my 20" project includes some detail analysis of the benefits of small pixels under extraordinary seeing conditions. With the increasing availability of cameras with large sensors containing 60 - 100 Mpx and single frame file sizes of 130-200 MB for a full download, the need for windowed data will only increase. In most cases, binning these large sensor works great for large objects or under most seeing conditions > 1" but in cases where you want to go after smaller object with maximum spatial sampling, it make no sense to transfer so much data for each frame--particularly when you can easily be generating 2-5 GB worth of data every night. When you have a remote observatory with 20-25 instruments each trying to upload that much data each night, things can get really bogged down. Sure, you can try to process data remotely before it's transmitted, but it also makes a lot of sense to simply have the capability to limit the data right at the source. Heck with a QHY600MM, simply windowing a 16Mpx region will still be plenty of data for a lot of more compact objects. Binning 2x2 for NB and/or wide field nebula does the same thing with respect to bandwidth considerations. The idea of windowed data should become a standard feature in new AP software. Heck, even MDL can do it...and that's really old code. John |
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I totally agree. CS Rüdiger |
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John Hayes: @John Hayes , I've used SGP for a few months in the past and then switched to Voyager. So what Voyager can do: 1) Not sure. 2) Yes. 3) Yes (Plate-solving and centering). 3) Yes (Multi-object sequencing). 4) You can add objects in a local catalog (RoboClip) and use them from this catalog. 5) Yes, using DragScript. 6) No. 7) Yes. 8. Yes. 9) A sequence can use the central region, which is defined in percents of the entire frame: 1 to 100%. I.e. the object has to be at the center of FOV. 10) Yes. 11) Bugs are rare and have been rather quickly fixed. Interface usability is subjective. I find it rather straightforward and usable. Voyager's strong point is full automation and unattended operation. Practically no interaction is needed if everything has been set up. It is necessary to compose a script which is customized for your equipment and the observatory in order to achieve this. Vitali |
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Vitali:John Hayes: Awesome! Thanks for that info! I spoke with Gaston at IFI and SkyGuard can work through ASCOM by interrogating Voyager to see what needs to be done. The communication protocol is a bit more robust with SGP because it allows two way communication, but he tells me that Voyager should work. John |
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Going back to a point that has come up a couple of times, meridian flips. I can not speak for any mount other than an AZEQ6 here, but regardless of if you disable flips in your software (Be that APT, SGP, NINA, Voyager etc, of which I have used all bar NINA personally) any goto command issued to the mount after the target has passed the meridian will result in a flip, that is just the behavior of the mount itself. If you issue a goto for coordinates west of the meridian it will go east of pier, pointing west. It does not matter if that goto originates in software like APT, SGP, Voyager etc, or from a hand controller. |
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One year ago, when I got my ASI183 MC Pro, I added APT to my portfolio. (With my QHY10 I used EZCAP which is directly from QHY). As ASI Studio had no reasonable functions at this time, I decided - on advice of a friend - to use APT. I, however, was never happy with the somewhat MS-DOS like user interface, dynamic zooming was not really possible and liveview was almost a mess, clicking thru histograms. Plate solving never worked. Then another astrofotgrapher told me about NINA, I installed it just for couriosity and from that moment on, I had a perfect workflow, platesolving did what it should, liveview was suddenly totally easy, so after 1 night with NINA I decided to deinstall APT. Another cool feature is the flat assistant, which automatically balances your exposure time. User interface and usability of NINA is in my opinion lightyears better with NINA. CS Markus |
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I had been using APT for a while. It is some time ago, and i wasnt happy about the live histogram and the live view. I also had issues with stability, my old Win8 Netbook hang up as soon as i used the focusing or bahtninov mask. I also had problems reading the letters - my fault, in the meantime i got googles. This might all have changed, and i know APT is capable of a lot of tasks, i think even can handle two cameras with dithering etc. Some day i switched to Nebulosity. It did all i wanted - easy framing, easy focusing (manually / semi-manually), sequencing. No fancy stuff, but simple and well-arranged. And proper live histogram and live preview für framing and focusing. Now i'm using NINA. I like the plate-solving capabilities (which APT offers, too). Again i dont like the live histogram. I don't like the usability for manual or semi-manual focusing. But the scope i'm actually using has a stable focus, and i don't have to re-focus regularly. I think there's not a clear winner. You can use a trial version of APT, and can get NINA for free. However, i'd recommend to donate some appropriate amount if you're using it regularly. Depending on your capabilities. CS Horst |
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I'm an APT user and was about to ask the community wether or not it is possible to disable meridian flips in APT but NINA might be the answer. I have a very small setup (Samyang 135 + EOS6D) on my AZ-EQ6 and nothing can hit the tripod, so I don't need flips (and they disturb me as I need to reframe slightly after each flip). Reading the documentation, it seems that the meridian flips can be disabled in NINA. Can anyone confirm? Also, I'm not guding but I dither using the APT dithering option. It seems NINA has the equivalent with "built-in dithering using NINA's direct guider function". Does anybody use this functionality? Frédéric Frederic, As to your question on turning off the meridian flip, see 'Session Craft' and in the delay flip move set your minutes to a large number. Now this is just a guess as I have not done this, but it could work. Good luck Rusty |
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| If you are using a mount like an AZ-EQ6 and have plate solving dialled in, meridian flips should not require any manual re framing. It should flip, then re center on your original target coordinates via plate solving. The image will be rotated 180 degrees compared to before the flip, but that should not matter to stacking software |
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| It is now just a matter of preference. The UI of NINA feels better to me - bu tI am sure that there will be people who f=prefer APT. NINA's flexibility was what won it for me and at the time its in app auto focus, though APT have revised theirs now...... |
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You can easily turn off meridian flips in NINA. Just don't insert the command "Meridian Flip" in the Advanced Sequencer that is in the latest release 1.11. You must explicitly insert that command in your sequence if you want meridian flips. Advanced Sequencer is fabulous. No other product comes close to it. Totally programmable. |
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Frédéric Auchère: You can disable the automatic meridian flip in APT. Tools-> Session Craft pop up dialog where you can uncheck Make Automatic Flip. |
